North Star Leaders Podcast

Lindsay Pedersen

The world needs what only your business can bring. And as a leader, it's your job to deliver. But where do you focus?

Where do you direct your time, your team, your budget, and your emotional energy? We're learning this together on the North Star Leaders Podcast. In this podcast, I talk to purpose-driven leaders about the choices that they make to create audacious economic value while also realizing their distinctive purpose.

I'm Lindsay Peterson, brand strategist, author of Forging an Ironclad Brand, and host of the North Star Leaders Podcast. Let's get to it. Today, I'm really happy to be joined by Craig McLuckie.

Craig is a serial founder and CEO, and he's now leading Stacklok, the software supply chain security company. Craig, welcome to the show.

Craig McLuckie

Thanks for having me on.

Lindsay Pedersen

I am so glad to have you. To start us off, Craig, what is your favorite thing about what you do?

Craig McLuckie

I love people. It sounds kind of weird, but as a kid, I always was kind of an engineer, and I loved to build things out of Legos or sticks or whatever I had on hand. As I've kind of progressed in my career, I found that the most fascinating thing to pull together is human beings and just working with people every day.

They're fascinating. They're intriguing. They'll occasionally break your heart, but they'll often surprise you.

I just love working with people.

Lindsay Pedersen

You're crafting something with your bare hands. It's just that the materials happen to be your teammates.

Craig McLuckie

Yeah, and just finding that right chemistry that creates something that's stronger than some of its parts. It's the most intriguing machine to build as an engineer is an organization, as a company, where people come together and work.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love that. I've heard you say, if you want to do something really big, it's better done together than apart. It's kind of this idea that you've just been sharing.

You said, if you want to change the world for good, you're probably not going to do that by yourself. Talk to me about what is the unlock when you collaborate? What happens that makes it bigger?

Craig McLuckie

Well, I think it's interesting. When you look at a human being, you have strengths, you have weaknesses, you have capabilities. And I think there's a natural proclivity for folks to hire people that are just like them.

So you create these self-replicating machines. And some organizations are pretty effective in building this kind of self-replicating system. But I think it leaves a lot of value on the table.

It leaves a tremendous amount of capability. If you're hiring people that operate a lot like you, they're going to have your strengths, but they'll also have your weaknesses. And so I think there's magic in finding an organization or a group of people that have non-overlapping superpowers.

And it's something that I've just taken a lot of delight in. And this is true of an executive team, but it's also true of a community. When you look at some of the work that I've done in communities, different companies have different character, different companies have different values, different companies have different expertise.

And if you can get different companies to collaborate, you can actually create something really special.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love the idea and the term non-overlapping superpowers. And I wonder, why don't all leaders embrace that? Is there something vulnerable or scary about hiring people who are really different from you?

What's the downside?

Craig McLuckie

I think at every stage of your career, right? As you move to a different level, you gain something and you give something up and you have to develop a new skill. And as you move from an individual contributor to manager, you gain the ability to influence through others.

You lose the ability to control the totality of the work product and you have to learn delegatory capabilities. So this is kind of a truism throughout your career. At some point, you have to learn to manage people who are better than you at something.

It's something that I don't think everyone actually learns. And that ability to trust is sometimes difficult. Different people have different styles.

I've certainly seen organizations that use a very hierarchical structure, kind of almost authoritarian model of management work. It's just not my style and it's just not the way that I prefer to operate.

Lindsay Pedersen

What is it that lights you up about leading others? What is it in you and your cellular makeup that makes it so gratifying for you to lead?

Craig McLuckie

I think you have to delight in other people's success. I don't know if that's just like a empathy thing or something else, but I think there's this pleasure in... This is kind of a little bit flaky, but when you get to a point where you see someone else's work product as your work product, when you can't really draw a distinction between the work that they're doing and the work that you're doing, when you kind of let the boundaries blur and you see them as part of the system and you see yourself as part of the system, it enables you to feel really great about someone else doing something that you couldn't necessarily do. It's just how I kind of look at the world and I hope that other managers and leaders do it the same way.

Lindsay Pedersen

It feels more than empathy to me. It's almost like that delight and pleasure in other people's success. It's like there's something merging with other people that actually reminds me in some ways of parenting, just the joy of seeing some moment of triumph or growth or resilience.

There's something life-affirming about it.

Craig McLuckie

It's interesting because I do think of this as almost like an organizational maturity model. You have that sort of the lowest tier of organizational maturity where it's kind of like dog eats dog, every human being for themselves. Then you get one click up on the maturity spectrum where it's like, we're a team, but we're competing with all these adjacent teams and we're the best team.

Then you get one click up and it's like, hey, we're just this killer company and we're this devastatingly effective entity that's going to compete with all these other companies. Then at the pinnacle of existence is that sort of view of like, hey, we're part of this bigger system and we're creating value as part of a community and the work that we're doing in the community is lifting up, it's bigger than us. As you start to think about that sort of evolution and looking for that bigger view, the great organizations will get into that sort of third tier.

But if you can take a community into that sort of fourth tier, it actually becomes quite effective.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love how you say it creates value because there's an ethical, a humane reason to be that way, but there's also an economic reason to be that way.

Craig McLuckie

Yeah, I think that's right. That's interesting. I don't want to sound like I'm a complete hippie here.

I like to succeed and I'm glad to compete just like anyone else. But it's kind of interesting that these high-functioning teams just produce disproportional value. If you bring together a set of self-actualized people that see themselves as part of the broader system, it's really powerful.

It's interesting, because I'll give you an anecdote. I had this conversation with a friend of mine. He, during the dot-com era, built this incredibly big, vibrant company that struggled a little bit at the end of the dot-com epoch.

But I asked him what he was most proud of, and he said the thing that was most amazing was everyone that he hired was self-actualized. When he said that to me, I was like, huh, that's kind of interesting. I don't know what that really means.

I got to thinking about it a lot. I got to thinking about organizational dynamics and what motivates people. Folks that have this kind of intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation, folks that are just happy to do the work rather than just being seen to do the work or doing it for some extrinsic purpose, was really interesting.

As I've been building my own companies and starting to work towards that idea that if you can identify and bring together a set of intrinsically motivated people that have that missionary versus mercenary mindset, you're going to avoid a lot of grief later on. There's this moment when a company hits between 75 and 150 people, and the individuals can't see how their contributions necessarily drive the macro outcome for the company. It starts to feel like a zero-sum game.

At that moment, when an individual can't see how their work is impacting the broader landscape, it starts to feel like that zero-sum mentality creeps in, and it becomes political, because to get something, you have to take it away from someone else. That's how it starts to feel. If you can stack the deck with leaders who are intrinsically motivated, if you can stack the deck with an organization that's intrinsically motivated, if you can find ways to identify those people, maybe you could avoid some of those complexities and ease your way through that growth where you avoid some of those complicated outcomes of politicking.

Lindsay Pedersen

It's like a more durable source of growth, a more sustainable source of growth through things like dot-com bubble bursts and that kind of thing.

Craig McLuckie

Yeah, exactly. I think as you go, the hard moments in a company's existence are you're crossing the threshold of 50 people, and then crossing the threshold of about 150 people, and then crossing these epochs that you move through. They become challenging.

That 150 threshold where you have to have empowered executives, you have to start bringing in some of the management by objective type things. You frankly have to navigate your way through the complexities of politicking is interesting. Making these cultural down payments early on is kind of an interesting way to go.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, speaking of that, I know that you at Stacklok, you've explicitly created five cultural tenets that you live by. Could you share what those are and how you use them as touchstones for making decisions?

Craig McLuckie

Yeah, it is interesting. Before I jump in, we think of these as our operating system. These are the things that drive our decision-making process.

These are the common set of attributes that people can depend on, just like an operating system abstracts away the hardware. Your culture abstracts away the human being and creates a common interface that you can depend on. The things that we've picked are team centricity.

We like this idea that no one's lifted up by pushing someone else down, like really delighting in the success of others, going together, and looking for people that are authentically motivated by other people's happiness and success. The way to look for this is asking people, like, tell me about your team. Some people will be like, oh, you're a bunch of losers, but I'm great, is the sort of subtext.

Then there's some people who just can't say enough great things about the people around them. Go hire the people that love the people around them. It's just a great starting point.

We emphasize mission orientation. We like to say we hire missionaries, not mercenaries. We want people that are intrinsically motivated, that are captivated by the idea that our mission is their mission, that they have this shared sense of purpose, that they're willing to go the extra mile and do the hard thing, because they're coming to work not just for the dollar or the fame or the equity.

They're coming to actually solve a problem in the world and are motivated by that. That really does create this ethos that I think is great. We talk a lot about finding truth in data and hiring people that are data-centric.

This idea that it's not just about having a scientific mindset. It's about being able to look past the proximal and see the hard truths that the data is telling you and have the courage to listen to that sort of data. So like, hey, this thing, we fell in love with the idea, but let's look at the data and like, hey, it's not working.

It doesn't matter how much we love it. It doesn't matter how much we're invested in it. You just got to follow the data and have that courage to do it.

The fourth attribute we talk about is this intersection of humility and relentlessness. I think in that book, Good to Great, they talked about the level five leader, which is somebody that embodies an absolute relentlessness, but is also understated and isn't necessarily self-promoting. As we start to look for people and think about who we want to move into leadership roles, that combination of attributes is particularly powerful.

And then the final attribute is, hey, we're operating in a security space, so it's important to stand vigilant. We need people that are eyes wide open, are realistic about the world around them, aren't necessarily paranoid, but also are not going to let people pull one over on them. They're that constant reminder that the world is not necessarily always a great place and we just need to make sure that we're eyes wide open.

We're not naive about how things are going to progress.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, it's like a worldview. I've heard you say that language shapes thought. I'm curious, with all of those tenets, you've put language to some things that are otherwise a little bit abstract.

What is it about making the tenet so explicit that gives it its power, that makes it useful as a leader?

Craig McLuckie

In abstract terms, if that was it, if what I just described to you was something, it would make people feel warm and fuzzy inside during all-hand meetings. When I articulate this to new hires, it might captivate their imagination, make them want to work at the company because they share those values. But if I left it at that, it would just be useless.

It's not just about language, it's about explaining your moment-to-moment decisions every day through the lens of your values. If I'm in a one-on-one with someone, being able to map their behavior when I'm giving them praise back to the initial tenets, like, hey, what you did there was a great example of team-centricity. I love the way that you went out of your way to lift so-and-so up.

We know that no one's lifted up by pushing someone down, and this is whatever. Or if you have to have a difficult conversation with someone, like, I know you love this idea, but the data is just telling us something else. We listen to the data.

We find truth in data as a company. I think a starting point is certainly putting words around it and concepts around it, but it has to become part of your daily lexicon. You have to keep going back to your culture and explaining decisions, and particularly hard decisions, through the lens of these attributes.

And then the other side of it is, you have to live it. Like, it's not just enough to talk about it, right? Your actions have to embody it.

And hypocrisy is the culture killer. The minute you do something that isn't aligned with these attributes, you're done. And your behavior is the culture, whether you like it or not.

Lindsay Pedersen

That's like such a mic drop statement. Hypocrisy is the culture killer. And when there are explicit tenets that are regularly and publicly used to explain things, it's almost like it holds your feet to the fire.

You leadership, feet to the fire about the things that you're trying to model for everybody else in the organization.

Craig McLuckie

Yeah. And, you know, from management, but also to brand, you know, like I've had this conversation, I have this most amazing kind of CMO, like, you know, he's just an incredible storyteller. I always kind of describe people, you know, as kind of like, he's the heart of the company.

He's not just the CMO, he really is the heart of the company. Often it's not, the conversations I have with him are like, what does, you know, like we talk about brand, but I'm always like, we're not talking about brand, it's culture. Like, what does our brand demand?

It's not really a question of what does our brand demand? It's like, what does our culture demand? Because our culture is our brand.

You know, our culture is how, you know, we show up in the world, you know, our culture is how our customers are going to experience us. These things all become just, you know, one thing. And it's really important that you kind of see that bigger picture.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love that. Yeah. There's such high overlap between brand and culture that it's almost synonymous, depending on the context that you're using it.

And both of them, I mean, something that I hear you saying as well is that these tenets and the various things that reflect the culture and the brand are a way to scale you as a leader. Because if you can, in one-on-ones, reference those tenets for others, then it almost like makes you less required in that conversation.

Craig McLuckie

We talked earlier about like, you know, hiring people with diverse talents and not being a self-replicating entity. The thing you absolutely want to create replication around is the culture, right? Like that's the thing that it is the standard interface.

It is the commonality that should exist across everyone. And then within that, you should embrace as much diversity as you can, right? So you use the culture to specify what set of commonalities you want inside your organization, and then rely on diversity to fill the skill gaps beyond the boundaries of what your culture dictates.

But also recognize you're going to get it wrong. Like your culture has to be able to evolve. It's one of these things where I talk about hypocrisy is the culture killer.

And like, you may find yourself in a moment when things get really tough, where you cannot live by your cultural attributes, where you may have set a goal for yourself or set a bar or set an attribute, you simply cannot attain. And in that moment, you got to say like, hey, maybe it's okay. Maybe our culture needs to change.

Like I can't act in a way that's, you know, in contravention to my culture, but also maybe our culture doesn't create a survivable way. Like I need to, from an evolutionary perspective, change this. Like this is something that needs to, you know, evolve because my missions evolved or because we've discovered that we were being naive about this or whatever.

And I think it's just important to come back to that, like, just have that hard conversation with yourself and be realistic. And if you can't stay true to something, because it just doesn't fit the needs of the domain or the business or the team or the whatever, change it, you know, it should be a living thing.

Lindsay Pedersen

And there's a courageousness to that too. You used the word courage earlier. There's a courageousness to that, to recognizing, oh, we didn't capture it, right.

Or we didn't capture it in a way that allows us to evolve the way we need to evolve. We got to revisit that. That too is data driven.

Craig McLuckie

Yeah. And it's like, you know, if it's an operating system, sometimes your operating system has bugs and you got to go fix them. Or sometimes you need to rearchitect it because it's just, it's not serving you as an entity, as an organization in a way that needs to.

So, you know, it's a sort of interesting intersection between intelligent design and evolution. It's a little bit of both is the way I tend to think about it.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love it. At Stacklok, I know you strive to be a camel, quote unquote, a camel, not a unicorn. Talk about what that means and how it's a useful guide for you.

Craig McLuckie

Yeah. I mean, we always kind of joked about this, but we also treat it pretty seriously. There's a lot of opportunities to fall in love with hype.

There's a lot of hype in the generative AI space right now, right? I mean, I've been in this game for quite a while, so I've seen several bubbles come and go. You know, I've seen organizations that have been caught up in bubbles, you know, either succeed or fail.

And what I've kept coming back to is, you know, the organizations that tend to succeed in a boom or a bust cycle are organizations that are well run, create authentic value in the world, already focused. You know, look at what happened during the dot-com bust. You know, sure.

That little sock puppet pet thing just went away. But like Amazon, PayPal, eBay, you know, like these incredible assets converged out of it and became these kind of, you know, Google. I mean, good Lord.

You know, so there's this need to not fall in love with the hype, you know, to really focus on creating authentic value in the world, to not just fall in love with your brand and to retain that sort of that intent to just be purposeful and be deliberate about, you know, how you're using your resources. You know, I've always told the team like, Hey, that's, it's camel thing or unicorn thing, you know, unicorns for like in the dunes and they like, whatever camels don't like they go, like it's purpose built. Like you just like, let's be focused.

I mean, it's interesting because this culture in an organization that's explicit and this culture that kind of is almost implicit and that you don't necessarily think about, but that becomes a part of your, your operating parameters. And, you know, a company in many ways is this interesting blend of implicit and explicit, you know, kind of culture and attributes. And a lot of it's just a caricature of the founders.

You know, like I always used to joke that, you know, at the end of the day, you can talk about culture as these desired attributes, but you can't manufacture out of nothing. You can either pick on something that you embody or then amplify it. You can dampen down things that you embody, but you can't just manufacture culture out of nothing.

And so that sort of the explicit culture, certainly that's true. And I think it's true of implicit culture as well. Like, you know, I think my co-founder and I are a little longer in the tooth than a billionaire.

We've built enough things in the world. We've seen enough success, but we've also seen enough failure to know that, you know, Hey, you can't fall in love with these, you know, any specific idea you've got to be practical and pragmatic. And that shapes our, our narrative.

Lindsay Pedersen

I'm intrigued by this idea of their implicit and explicit elements of your culture. Is there benefit to keeping some elements implicit? Like, is there like a time and a place for being explicit and a time or place for just letting it be covert?

Craig McLuckie

Well, I don't think you can help it. Right. Whether you know it or not, as a founder, your company culture is going to become a caricature of you.

Right. So I look back on companies. I worked at Microsoft, you know, during the, the Gates years and into the bomb years.

And obviously it's probably changing under Satya now, but it was a very macho aggressive culture. You know, it was a very like alpha nerd, you know, people pounding on the table, telling you we're dumb, asking you to manage when they've got high smart people kind of culture. And it was in some ways a caricature of Bill Gates, because that's how he behaved in meetings.

It certainly wasn't an explicit culture, but that was implicit, right? Like Google was this kind of passive aggressive, you know, like when Larry and Sergey got kind of, you know, when they switched off, it wasn't like Bill Gates, where you'd jump on the table and scream at you. They would just kind of start blowing spit bubbles and trying to ignore you and waiting for you to go away.

So it became this very passive aggressive culture. Right. And so this is implicit, right.

And it's not necessarily bad. It's not necessarily good. It's just the company becomes a caricature of your founders.

And I think you just have to accept that, you know, and sometimes, you know, implicit culture is worth promoting to explicit culture, right? As you start to discover this and as you start to grow, because it's, you know, explicit cultures is, is what you're hiring for. It's what you're seeking out.

Implicit culture is what people discover when they start working there. And so I think there's, there's times when you want to narrow the gap between the two. But the thing that's most important is make sure that they're not fighting each other.

Because if your implicit culture is that ends with your implicit culture, God help you.

Lindsay Pedersen

That's the hypocrisy.

Craig McLuckie

That's the hypocrisy.

Lindsay Pedersen

The culture killer.

Craig McLuckie

And that's when all bets are off, right. And it creates this weird dichotomy. And it's just, it's a bad idea.

Lindsay Pedersen

You lose trust. You lose trust with employees, with customers, probably. It just, you lose your credibility.

Wow. What is your leadership growth edge right now? What are you striving for?

Craig McLuckie

My career has been kind of up and down, right? What I mean by up and down is zero to thousands of people and sort of, you know, kind of scale, you know, start with a handful of people, build a company, sell a company, build a business, up and down, up and down. And so I think for me, the thing that I'm really focused on is situational approaches.

And it's something I have to constantly remind myself of, which is like the patterns that work for a thousand people don't work for a hundred people or 10 people. And so, you know, I'm constantly trying to, you know, reset my operating model and my methodology and my framework for where we are. And, you know, like I make mistakes, you know, like I've over indexed and created too much structure before we were ready for structure.

And it's impacted our agility. And so I have to go back to the leaders and be like, offer me a Culper and say like, Hey, you know, I kind of screwed up. I pushed us into this world that was a little bit more structured.

And it's hurting us. So we need to kind of rethink these types of things. So, so I think for me, it's just embracing a much more fluid kind of situational approach.

I'm certainly working hard on, we're a pretty geodiverse entity, you know, we have an office in Seattle and office in London. And so, you know, creating and really focusing on driving efficiencies where there's, you know, significant times and offset and establishing the best practices and working through that is also an area of personal growth and development for me. Every day is a new adventure and you're trying to kind of find something new.

Final thing is just learning. Like the world just changed under us. I spent an inordinate amount of time, you know, like I'm a big model builder.

Like I build models of the world in my head and try to kind of understand like where the efficiencies and inefficiencies are. And with this gen AI thing, like, good Lord, it's changing so quickly. Like it's difficult for me to model out like what the implications are in the areas that I care about.

Like, what does it mean to supply chain security? Like, you know, we care about developers and making developers life more safe and sustainable, but like, what does it kind of mean to be a developer in three years? How do we even think about that workflow?

So that's the other, you know, kind of significant part of my life is just remodeling in my mind what it means with these new tools and capabilities.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. I love that. As a leader, it's exhausting to run a whole company, to be the CEO.

What do you do to build your own capacity in terms of like rituals or taking care of yourself? What do you do to set yourself up for a good day, a good week?

Craig McLuckie

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Like it really depends on where you are in your sort of journey.

Like I love managing a big company. Like I love the feeling of being in the yoke of like having the structure. I love getting up at 4am.

I liked doing my prep work and meeting starting at six and then at six, then you close your work. And then, you know, like I love that sort of structure. I like working.

And that to me, like easy. That's my natural space. It's like just having this kind of, it's interesting for in an earlier company, it's harder for me.

Like, you know, I've got people around me that are eminently qualified to, I know that I don't have the attention to detail. So I tend to, my sort of first line leadership are people that are meticulous and have this incredible attention to detail. They're eminently qualified to run the organization at the scale.

So it creates opportunities where, you know, I have, I have very strong leaders in place and I've stacked the deck pretty deep with folks that will be able to lead us through the next bit of growth. And so for me, you know, staying sane, I certainly, I mean, I like to work out. I try to get at least one outdoor workout and one indoor workout every day.

I try to structure my day ahead of time. So, you know, deliberately block out portions of the day so it doesn't get consumed for research, reading, contemplation, et cetera, and just be deliberate about those capabilities. And then, you know, if I find myself, I'm relentless in delegation.

You know, if I find myself consistently doing something, which I believe there's someone else in the organization or the world who would be better at doing, I tend to delegate it. And then if there's not someone in the organization that can do that thing, and I think I could hire them, I'll go hire them. So I think I've adopted this mentality of constantly just trying to work myself out of a job.

I just constantly finding ways to delegate, you know, so that I can just focus on the things that only I can do. But also, you know, when you're a little startup, sometimes you're also just the pinch hitter. Like, sometimes it's nice that, you know, I have great leaders.

So someone needs to go and mine, you know, lists and do mundane things. You can't have ego. You got to be willing to do whatever it takes for your organization at any moment.

Lindsay Pedersen

Which also feels very aligned with your value around humility, relentlessness and humility kind of being on that.

Craig McLuckie

I mean, I literally just got back from the office where I spent some of the morning assembling office chairs. Wow.

Lindsay Pedersen

You do the mundane stuff and the sublime stuff.

Craig McLuckie

Yeah, exactly. So just do the work in front of you and do it well.

Lindsay Pedersen

This has been such a lovely conversation about leadership. Do you have a few minutes for some rapid fire, one word answer questions?

Craig McLuckie

Absolutely. Take it away.

Lindsay Pedersen

Okay, cool. What is a place you've always wanted to travel?

Craig McLuckie

I've always wanted to go to the Sahara Desert. I love the desert for some reason. Sorry, that's not one word.

Lindsay Pedersen

Two words. A phrase is fine. The Sahara Desert.

Okay. What is your favorite word in another language?

Craig McLuckie

Oh, gosh, I can't say it. It's too rude.

Lindsay Pedersen

Okay.

Craig McLuckie

So Afrikaans, you know, it's interesting. Afrikaans is a language that's, it's kind of, it sits at the intersection of Flemish and Dutch. And the way I always love to describe Afrikaans is that it's what would happen to that language if you took it into Africa and let lions chase it around for 200 years.

It's the most beautiful swearing language in the world. It's got these like really harsh consonants. And so if you ever need to swear up a blue streak, like Afrikaans is the best language in the world for cussing.

Lindsay Pedersen

Okay, I'm too curious. You have to say, you don't have to translate it, but say it in Afrikaans.

Craig McLuckie

Okay, well, I'll give you an example. So in English, if you said shit, like shit is shit, in Afrikaans it's cock. And it's like a much more, like the tone of it, you know, like it's got a much harsher sound.

And so, you know, when you start like stringing together the words, like it has this kind of like this beautiful harshness to it. So if you ever need to like really like swear up a storm, Afrikaans is the best language in the world for it.

Lindsay Pedersen

So it's very satisfying.

Craig McLuckie

It's very satisfying because like, you know, swearing in English, it's like, it's okay. But if you, you know, when you swear in Afrikaans, people can tell that you really mean it.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, it's like, yeah, there's like onomatopoeia to it. It like actually capture, saying it captures the feeling of the meaning.

Craig McLuckie

Exactly. Right. And so it's, you know, you can just imagine these poor folks that were trying to like get over the mountain ranges and the lions were eating their cattle.

So the swear words they came up with were like, you know, just very evocative.

Lindsay Pedersen

They meant business. What time do you usually wake up in the morning?

Craig McLuckie

I get up pretty early. So, you know, five-ish a.m. Okay.

Lindsay Pedersen

What, if any, nicknames do you have?

Craig McLuckie

I don't know. No one's ever told me anything.

Lindsay Pedersen

I guess Craig is a single syllable first name. Can't really shorten it that much.

Craig McLuckie

I've never had anyone call me anything but Craig. Okay. Or Dad.

Lindsay Pedersen

Okay. Well, okay. Dad, also one syllable.

Okay. Are you a dog person or a cat person or neither?

Craig McLuckie

Dog person.

Lindsay Pedersen

This has been great. Thank you so much. If folks want to learn more about you or StackLok, where should we send them?

Craig McLuckie

Go to stacklok.com, which is S-T-A-C-K-L-O-K dot com. Or hit me up on LinkedIn. You can find me and I'm always there.

Awesome.

Lindsay Pedersen

Thank you. Perfect. It's been wonderful to have you.

Craig McLuckie

Thanks for your time.

Lindsay Pedersen

Thanks for listening to this episode of North Star Leaders. Make sure you don't miss an episode by subscribing on your favorite podcast app. If you know of a North Star leader whose insights would be valuable for this community, please message me on ironcladbrandstrategy.com.

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