North Star Leaders Podcast

Lindsay Pedersen

The world needs what only your business can bring, and as a leader, it's your job to deliver. But where do you focus? Where do you direct your time, your team, your budget, and your emotional energy?

We're learning this together on the North Star Leaders Podcast. In this podcast, I talk to purpose-driven leaders about the choices that they make to create audacious economic value while also realizing their distinctive purpose. I'm Lindsay Pedersen, brand strategist, author of Forging an Ironclad Brand, and host of the North Star Leaders Podcast.

Let's get to it. Today, I am so happy to be joined by Dan Lorenc. Dan is CEO and founder of ChainGuard, the software supply chain security company.

Dan welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me. Really happy to see you.

To start us off, Dan, what's the most energizing part of your job that others would never guess from the outside?

Dan Lorenc

I love the CEO job because it's different every day. It's not the same type of problems. It's not the same type of challenges.

There's something crazy, something new, something different that we're trying to figure out how to solve together as a team every single day. There's no two days that are the same.

Lindsay Pedersen

So you like variety.

Dan Lorenc

Yeah.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. And I know that you spent 10 years at Google and now you're the CEO. What do you bring to bear as a person now that you didn't get to bring to bear before you were a CEO?

Dan Lorenc

Well, hey, Google was great. It was an amazing company. I had a great time there.

I had a whole bunch of different roles all throughout Google. A bunch of different teams from our cloud platform to infrastructure, internal stuff. But you're still a small part of a massive company.

You don't get to see the entire lifecycle. You're just working on one set of small projects. You won't get to interact with the customers.

You don't get to interact with the finance systems. But the entire holistic piece of being a company is segmented off. That just has to happen at that scale.

Being able to be part of everything from start to finish, left to right, top to bottom of the company is very, very, very different than working in a larger organization like that.

Lindsay Pedersen

What have you learned about yourself as the person in charge of the entire spectrum, the whole company, that you couldn't in a super large organization?

Dan Lorenc

Skill-wise and talent-wise and all the different functions of a company, I think I've learned that one of the biggest surprises to me was how much I loved the sales aspect. My experience as an engineer was salespeople were just cold calling you, trying to get you to buy term life insurance or something silly like that, bothering you. A lot of people probably have that experience.

But when you have a real product that solves real problems for people, sales is about helping them. And you can see those results when you're working with customers hands-on, when you're spending your days with them solving problems. And you get to see the results that your product can bring to them.

And it's really rewarding. It surprised me how much I enjoyed that aspect.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. Sales kind of has like a brand problem, right? In a way that there's a sense that it's very one-way or it's not generous somehow, but if you're selling something you care about.

Dan Lorenc

And it can be. It can be transactional like that. And I think that's where some of the reputation comes from, but it doesn't have to be.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. It reminds me of, like, I have a couple of really into paleo eating. And when they talk about it, they're evangelizing it to me in a, it feels salesy, but it's coming from a place of like, they're like, I feel so much better.

Like, it's so good.

Dan Lorenc

And so they're all putting a briefcase with butter and bacon and trying to eat that every day.

Lindsay Pedersen

That part is not hard to get on board with. But like, one could say that that's sales, but it would feel quite, there's something very human to human about that because it's not mercenary. There's clearly something coming from the heart.

Dan Lorenc

Yeah. It's about trust and authenticity.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah.

Dan Lorenc

And it shows up in all aspects of the company too. It's not just, you know, selling our products to customers.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh, say more about that. Yeah.

Dan Lorenc

It's selling the company to new hires that you're trying to recruit. It's selling in addition to the company to investors. It's reselling it to people a year or two in when they've kind of hit that traditional disillusionment.

It's the same thing over and over.

Lindsay Pedersen

Right. It's different audiences. It's different moments of the journey are going to, when there's like energy flagging or when there's loyalty flagging or when there's usage flagging, that's a moment for like re-energizing, which one could say is a sales moment in a, the good way of thinking of sales.

So tell my audience about Chain Guard, tell us what it is and what is this thing that you're selling that you have find so rewarding?

Dan Lorenc

Yeah. So we're building a safe source for open source software. Open source software is this weird phenomenon.

It's kind of happened over, it's been around for 40 years on the internet and it's just people putting software that they've written available on the internet for free for anyone else to use for any purpose. And it's for, that's what it is. But it's growing against all odds and is to underpin all modern software and all modern technology.

It's the best software out there that you can use, more secure by any metric than, the alternatives. That's for a bunch of reasons structurally. Right now, there's millions of people contributing to these repositories every day and just giving their work away and letting other people build on it.

But there's a bunch of challenges with that model too. Anybody on the internet can contribute to open source, which is great. But if you've spent any time on the internet, you probably realize not everyone there is a nice person.

And in the last 5 or 10 years, attackers have realized that this exists and it's this kind of high trust piece of society that's allowed it to function. So that's under attack today. It's criminals, it's hackers, it's nation states taking advantage of the fact that anyone can contribute anonymously to this code base and companies all over the world are using it.

It's running every time you do an ATM transaction or every time you up directions on your phone, that's all powered by open source software. And it's amazing and is a testament to the goodwill of humanity that made it this far. But it's also terrifying when you realize the risks involved.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, wow. It's interesting because like speaking of generous, there's such a spirit of generosity behind open source. And just like with any generous space, any commons, there can be bad actors.

So what's the pain that your customer is in before ChainGuard?

Dan Lorenc

Yeah, there's a bunch of issues that they have to deal with when they start using open source. It's great because it's free. You just grab it off of the internet and run it.

You don't have to go buy something or sign up. That's led to challenges with inventory managers now where their developers have pulled in tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of different libraries and pieces of open source software that was free to get in, but it still has this massive maintenance cost once it is brought. All software has bugs.

Some of those bugs have security issues, whether it's open source or not. And one of the analysis we look at is it's free, not free as in beer, free as in coffee. When you sign up and start using open source, there's a huge amount of maintenance that you have to do for it.

And that's the work that we take off of our customer's plate. We give them a secure, tested, hardened version of all this open source that they can trust and take that maintenance work off.

Lindsay Pedersen

And who is kind of the bullseye, ideal customer, the one that's going to get the most value from this?

Dan Lorenc

We have over 250 customers now. They range from small startups to some of the biggest enterprises in the world. Anybody that's using open source software cares about security, basically.

It's a huge market.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, that's a huge market. And then safe source for open source. And I've heard you use those words for your mission.

That mission, that phrase, safe source for open source, how is that present in the day-to-day leading of the company? What does it filter in and filter out?

Dan Lorenc

Yeah, it starts with our mission on our website, safe source for open source. It's part of our brand. It's how we explain what we do to our customers.

It's a filter on our product roadmap. There's tons and tons of other things we could be doing to help with security, but we're focused there on being that source, trying to be the safest source for open source that all of our customers could be using. If they're not using us, then they're getting it from hundreds of other disparate, fragmented, free sources run by volunteers on the internet.

We're building a better, safer source where they can pull all of that from without impacting the rest of their workflows. There's scanning things, there's tons of other workflow pieces of automation that lots of other people solve. But this keeps us focused on the content and being that source.

Lindsay Pedersen

What's an example of something that was kind of otherwise like an attractive idea, but it didn't activate the idea of safe source for open source, and therefore it was a no?

Dan Lorenc

Yeah, we spent a while trying to figure out what we were going to do when we first started our company. We were going to do something in this software supply chain security space. We tried a bunch of different stuff.

It's a very messy, complicated category. The category is really just a bunch of unrelated tools that kind of interact with dependencies and software that people are pulling in. We actually started with something different.

We started with this other product that would spot issues in your supply chain and tell you where you were doing things wrong and tell you where you were doing things insecure. That's great, but then somebody has to fix that. Nobody wants another tool that tells them about thousands of issues that they already knew they had that they don't have time to fix.

And eventually, we settled on this. What if we could just do all of that work for them for that open source software and build a secure supply chain to get that to them, and then just give them the end result instead of giving them more alerts and crazy issues that they have to deal with that they're already too swamped to deal with.

Lindsay Pedersen

Right. Not just the smoke alarm, but the prevention technology for the fire to begin with.

Dan Lorenc

Yes, exactly. Like a fireproof house.

Lindsay Pedersen

A fireproof house where the smoke alarm is hardly even needed. Right, right.

Dan Lorenc

Yes.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh my gosh, because the smoke alarm is just going to drive you batty.

Dan Lorenc

Yeah, I always love it when the batteries go out. You've got to go find which one is in the middle of the night.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh my god. Totally. So what's something really mundane that has happened as a result of that mission of that positioning, safe source for open source?

Like when you've decided, oh, that partner or that new product feature or that person that we might be recruiting or anything was actually just like, oh, that is attractive, but it's not on brand.

Dan Lorenc

Yeah, I think a pretty good example is that kind of smoke alarm. There's a lot of products that scan open source code and tell you about these known vulnerabilities that are in it that you're using. And by the numbers, somewhere around 90% of the code people are running is open source.

The final 10% is what they're writing on top of. And so there's tons of tools that tell you about which ones have vulnerabilities, which ones you have to update, which ones you should switch out. Our customers have millions of these vulnerabilities that get flagged by those tools.

And we often get asked, like, should we build one of those? Because none of them are really amazing and they all have issues and stuff. And we're not doing that for a couple of reasons.

One, it's not the safe source for open source. But two, our customers really love that we're not checking our own work and we're not selling them the scanning product that tells them it's safe and the product that's safe. They love that they can buy or use some of the other products they already have.

And they agree with us that we have made all of this safe and secure. It's turned us into a bit of a Switzerland here. We're neutral.

We work with all of them. And our customers don't really have to trust us. They can just keep using the tools that we're using to get good results.

Lindsay Pedersen

I see. So there's like an alternative might have almost like a conflict of interest.

Dan Lorenc

Exactly. Yeah.

Lindsay Pedersen

Whereas this like structurally you're offering makes them feel safe in a not to use that word in a different way.

Dan Lorenc

So how do we know it's safe? Check it with whatever tool you already use.

Lindsay Pedersen

Right. It makes me think of another brand that represents safety is Volvo. And when Volvo developed the three point seat belt in, I think, the 60s.

Dan Lorenc

Oh, I've heard. I've heard the story.

Lindsay Pedersen

Do you know that? So they did not take a patent on it because they wanted other car brands also. They're like, our mission is to save drivers out there.

So it would be against the mission not to share that might be apocryphal, but it feels like them.

Dan Lorenc

Yeah. Yeah. I guess so.

That analogy would be like us saying our cars were the safest, but only if you use our version of the study that no one else can use. Right.

Lindsay Pedersen

Right. Right. And it's so trust breeding to feel that, oh, not to mention easier, lower exertion on their part.

Dan Lorenc

Yeah.

Lindsay Pedersen

And this is kind of dovetails into something else I wanted to talk about with you, which is category creation, because I've heard you say that you don't really love the phrase category creation. Neither do I. But talk about what it's like to be early in a category and what bearing that has on your positioning.

Dan Lorenc

I don't hate the term. I think it's probably misused a lot. When you're building something new, people need something to compare it to.

And they need some kind of mental model for where to put it in their tech stack, which budget it's going to come out of, the Gartners of the world that make those quadrants. There's value in that, explaining this type of thing, especially in enterprise companies where the buyer is not always the one using it at the end of the day. But I think as long as you're solving a real pain point, then that kind of happens naturally.

If you try to make up some new category first, you're kind of putting the cart before the horse. Figure it out. Make sure you're solving a real pain.

Make sure it's repeatable. Make sure it's pain that lots of people have. And then you'll figure out the right way to describe it.

We've gone through a couple different iterations about ourselves, like who is the right buyer? Who's the right audience inside of the company, especially for something like this, where it's a pretty horizontal product and many, many, many case touches. You might think you kind of are a security company.

We do things securely and a lot of people buy it for the security benefits. But the end user for us is actually developers. And in the beginning, we were selling to CISOs.

We still do a little bit, but it's actually flipped now. I think 85% of our buyers are actually CTOs or VP engineering, something like that. Someone in the engineering organization instead of security.

And they're the end users at the end of the day. They're the ones that have to roll this product out. It kind of aligns everything much better if they understand the value up front and know what they're getting into before they purchase.

If security buys something and then tells developers they have to use it, there's tons of friction that comes as a result of that. You might get the deal done faster, but then you're kind of planting all of that work to after rather than doing it up front. So until you've done that and figured out the right way, then yeah, the category could be completely wrong.

Lindsay Pedersen

Right. I like the way you said cart before horse, like there's a sequencing. There's also, I mean, something that I find sort of funny is I work with a lot of venture capital firms and they love the phrase category creation.

So the investors love it. Consumers, like the person, and maybe that would be the end user and the customer too, the buyer as well. A, they don't know what do you mean by category?

What do you mean? Like the serial category, like what? But B, you're telling me that I got to start a new behavior?

Like now I have to like, so it's like, it doesn't honor their psychology. The last thing they want, and most people don't want to like learn a new behavior, like go from the known to the unknown. So there's sort of this, like investors love to hear about how we're creating this new category.

Customers is the opposite. And so that always, I mean, sometimes the way that you talk about the company with investors is going to be quite different from the way that you talk about it with customers.

Dan Lorenc

Yeah. Category is important there too, because there's never just one company in a space and they're trying to map the ones that are going after the same dollars and the same market. Customers don't care so much about that, especially in the beginning.

They want some validation. Nobody wants to be, you know, the first guinea pig for a tiny company. They want to make sure you're going to be around and you're going to last.

You have other customers in their space, that kind of pure validation, but not so much the magic water stuff.

Lindsay Pedersen

Right. It also is like, from the customer's point of view, maybe they don't, I highly doubt they think of the category so much as what's the alternative behavior or what's the alternative thing I would be doing if not for this. That's what you're ultimately competing with is whatever that solution is, which very well might not be a direct competitor.

Dan Lorenc

Yeah. And especially when you're new, it's usually doing nothing or trying to do it yourself. Yeah.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. Right. Or duct taping something together.

It might be an FTE. It might be a team. It might be.

Yeah. So what is the ChainGuard culture like and how, if at all, does it get informed by the mission?

Dan Lorenc

Yeah, the culture, we spend a lot of time on that. We're a remote company, which has big implications on it. Started during the pandemic, there were no offices.

No one was going into them. So it wasn't really a choice we could make at that time. But we've continued to grow and scale the company.

At Google, Google made you be an ad office. And I know it's changed a lot, but most of my time there, you had to be an ad office. They didn't really care which one.

When teams were all distributed and you have seven different offices, even in Mountain View. So even if you were in the same location, you probably weren't in the same building as the rest of your team. And you're always dealing with your commute an hour to work each day, sit in the office and then do video calls.

And so it kind of just became natural how to work in that way. And when the pandemic happened and everyone left, not much changed because people already knew how to do this. You just got to skip the commute.

I actually think working remotely is pretty easy. The hard part is when you're growing, when you're growing as fast as we are and you're adding this. We get the whole company together twice a year for a company summit.

And that's great. It's future culture building. It's great teamwork, camaraderie, getting to know the people you're working with outside of just the Zoom window.

But then when 10 or 15 people join the next week, they have to wait five months to meet and see those people. It just takes constant reinforcement.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. It's like the cruise mode works quite beautifully when there's existing relationships and trust and understanding how this works and that works. But the people growth, organizational growth, that's the tricky part.

That's really tricky.

Dan Lorenc

It's the same 10 people you've been working with for years and maybe somebody leaves and a new person joins. That's very different than this kind of high growth model.

Lindsay Pedersen

So how do you create those moments if there's five months until the next in-person retreat? Can you really develop bonds over video, like we as humans?

Dan Lorenc

You can. It's not the same as in-person. There's this study and I've even crowdsourced this on LinkedIn and nobody could find it.

So I thought there's a chance I hallucinated it. I remember reading it sometime during a pandemic. So if anybody listening can find it, send it over.

They tried to measure rapport, like the rapport you build up by working with someone. And they put a half-life on it. When you don't see someone again in person, it was somewhere around eight or nine months.

And so if you're working with someone for years and you don't see them for eight or nine months, you have half of that rapport left. And if you see them again for a day or two, it goes back up to the top, then it decays again. And it came out like a year and a half into the pandemic, right when everyone really started to get cranky with each other.

It was like, oh, this feels right. Yeah. And so we've forgotten that we're real people behind the screen.

And all it takes is a day or two together to kind of build that back up if you focus on it. At our summits, we spend a lot of time trying to get people working and meeting each other cross-functionally, people you're not going to interact with unless you can call us. And everyone complains that they don't get to spend enough time with their team every time we do it too.

But that's part of the design. We do smaller team meetups and department specific ones kind of on the offsetting quarters for that. But you're never really going to build up that connective tissue across departments without really focusing on it and making people not just sit and eat all the meals with their team, the same people they talk to all day long every day.

Lindsay Pedersen

Right. It's like there's something at an animal level that happens when you're physically together. There's a warmth and there's probably some sort of something happening, like a molecular thing happening.

Having said that, though, I feel like I'm surprised by how much actually can happen over video. I don't think I would have guessed that it's more effective than I would have thought. And I also, speaking of not being able to point at the study, because I can't think of who did this, but there's a study that audio only is actually more intimacy creating than video.

And so there's something about, it's kind of like I have teenagers and when they're in the car with me and we can't look at each other, a lot comes out that wouldn't happen in a FaceTime. So I'm thinking from a kind of contrarian here.

Dan Lorenc

Should we go cameras off for the rest of this?

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, isn't that thought provoking though? Because like, oh my gosh, we don't even need the technology of Zoom. It's literally like a phone conversation.

And it just makes me think, what else are we, we think that we need that we actually don't really need in order to relate more with each other. Okay. Thank you for playing with me on that.

I'm very interested.

Dan Lorenc

Yeah. We do a mix. It's video meetings.

Slack huddles are great because you just click the button and you get voice and it's voice only, phone calls. And yeah, they do feel different now that I think about it.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. Somebody's got to study that more. Okay.

So like we're out of the pandemic and we're a remote company and you're building culture and there's a lot of intention behind it. What are like the most important things other than off sites, other than the in-person meetings that you do that makes everybody feel like we're really in this together?

Dan Lorenc

Yeah. We do weekly all hands at our company. And a lot of people drop them.

Google still did them when I left Google. Weekly all hands every single week with highlights, demos for teams. And so it shouldn't be that provocative to still be doing them at our size.

And it feels natural. And we put a lot of time into it. We invest a lot in preparing and making sure the content is great.

And the attendance is awesome. You know, each week it's somewhere around 80% of people showing up. We do surveys each time too, making sure we're best using people's time and the content is great.

But we have four core values at the company and we use the all hands to reinforce those. If we do it weekly, there's four a month approximately. We rotate through one of the values and really enforce that one during that week.

One of ours is we're customer obsessed and you're bringing customer guests for that one once a month. When we compare and pick somebody great or somebody that just had a bunch of trouble with our product. And then we also give out awards tied to those values that we all have.

There's two winners for the award and they pick the next one. But it can't be someone on their immediate team. So each week, that's my favorite part at the end.

The past recipients from last month are now passing the award on to someone else. They prepare little speeches and that's always fun. Like the Oscars.

To pass those awards around. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

You can't win the same one within six months, something like that. It has to be someone on a different team. So it really bounces around.

You see engineers giving to people on the sales team and the sales team giving to people on the support team. And it's great to see that the cross-functional vibration and then rewarding it.

Lindsay Pedersen

Wow. I love that. Okay.

So customer obsessed. And then what are the other three?

Dan Lorenc

We trust each other and assume good intent. Bias for intentional action. And then my personal favorite one, we do serious work, but we don't take ourselves too serious.

Lindsay Pedersen

Ooh, same word as that. I love it.

Dan Lorenc

Yeah. We're a security company and a product can be pretty scary to work on. And some of the places we're getting employed are super sensitive.

And we have to take that work very seriously. But at the end of the day, we're just people. And it's much easier to do this work if you're having fun.

In those all hands, we do site visits. Sometimes we're a bunch of people in an area, record a video of what it's like to live there and work there. And they all get together and put a bunch of time in and they're hilarious.

I try to publish them on YouTube a bunch of times, but they always grab the wrong music and it gets filtered by the content flags because it's hilarious songs and clips and stuff like that. So we haven't been able to publish them. We did take it down, but we showed them to candidates.

One of the first things people do at orientation is go back and watch the last year of those site visit videos.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh my gosh. I love that. So every month, it cycles.

Since there's about four weeks in a month, you tackle one of those and that's the all hands. I love that, Dan. That is such a neat way to make it concrete and the repetition so that it's like you remember it because there's four and we go through them every month.

Dan Lorenc

And it just helps us with the content plan too. We know where we're going to have the customers. We know how to plan and how to make it.

Instead of what should we do, it's how can we make this the best version of that each month.

Lindsay Pedersen

It gives structure to something otherwise nebulous.

Dan Lorenc

Exactly.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, I love that. Okay. So as a CEO, what do you do to make yourself, your best person to show up?

What are the ways that you feel yourself and rejuvenate?

Dan Lorenc

I just work. That's kind of all I do.

Lindsay Pedersen

All I do is work.

Dan Lorenc

Yeah, there's no rejuvenation needed for me. I love this. I love this job.

I love the company. I love what we're doing. Yeah, I'm fired up every day.

Lindsay Pedersen

So how do you maintain that energy? What are the ways that you replenish so that you're always rejuvenated because you love the content of the work, but how can you work so much?

Dan Lorenc

It doesn't feel like work when you're, I guess, just this excited by what you're doing, this motivated by the problem. For me, it's really work with this amazing team too.

Lindsay Pedersen

So you don't need to replenish because it's not draining to begin with because it's so soul filling to do what you're doing every day.

Dan Lorenc

Yeah, I could keep doing this for a long time.

Lindsay Pedersen

I can tell that it's really resonating for you. What's a mindset shift in leading that's helped you to be the kind of CEO that you want to be?

Dan Lorenc

I think, especially in a remote environment, but at any company, I think one of the biggest keys is repetition. You can't say something enough times or enough different ways, and you just have to repeat the same message. The mission, from the mission down to each individual element of our strategy and what we're doing now, the more you say it, the more different ways videos, recordings, documents, everyone hears and interprets things differently.

And just leading into that, the whole leadership team, and just to say the same thing until they get sick of it is key.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love that. It's like, there's no need to develop novel North Star principles here. We have them.

And repeating them, it might sound boring to us, but to the audience, there's no such thing.

Dan Lorenc

Yeah, you can't say the same thing too many times.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love this. Awesome. Okay, as we wrap up, are you ready for a few rapid-fire questions, one-word responses?

Dan Lorenc

Sure, one word.

Lindsay Pedersen

Okay, ish. Okay. What's the most recent piece of media that you streamed or read or listened to that you really loved or that really moved you?

Dan Lorenc

I listened to Taylor Swift all day long.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh, okay. Wait, so I can't be so rapid-fire on that. What's the most recent Taylor song that you have jammed to?

Dan Lorenc

I love the Snow on the Beach one with Lana Del Rey.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh, yeah. I don't know what that's called, but okay. So the collab with Lana Del Rey from just like two or three years ago.

Okay. Love that. What is a place that you've always wanted to travel to?

Dan Lorenc

Ooh, we just started hiring a team in Australia. Can't wait to go visit.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh, is that why you started a team in Australia, so that you could go there? Okay. What is your favorite meal?

Dan Lorenc

Okay. What is your favorite meal? I just got, one of my friends got me on it, but I just got Buldak Ramen.

Ever tried that? It's this like Instagram-famous ramen, and I've had a ton lately.

Lindsay Pedersen

Say it again. Buldak Ramen?

Dan Lorenc

Buldak, B-U-L-D-A-K. It's some brand that got super famous. It's incredibly spicy, but it's addictive.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh my gosh. I am so happy to know about this.

Dan Lorenc

I think I'm like three years late on this trend.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, so then I'm four years late. I'm going to do it. What is your favorite trait in a person?

Dan Lorenc

I'm going to have to pick two. Clarity and authenticity.

Lindsay Pedersen

Somebody who's really clear and somebody who's really authentic. And lastly, what's the most useful app on your iPhone that actually costs you money?

Dan Lorenc

I'm an Android person. I type it at Google.

Lindsay Pedersen

Of course you are. Yes.

Dan Lorenc

I'd probably say Audible. I don't know if that counts because the app is free, but you spend a lot of money on Audible.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, me too. I love Audible too. Awesome.

Well, Dan, thank you so much. This has been awesome. Where can folks find more about you and ChainGuard online?

Dan Lorenc

ChainGuard.dev is our website. Check that out. And then my LinkedIn.

So D-A-N space L-O-R-E-N-C. I post there all the time.

Lindsay Pedersen

Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today and for this whole conversation.

Dan Lorenc

Thank you. This was fun.

Lindsay Pedersen

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