North Star Leaders Podcast

Lindsay Pedersen

The world needs what only your business can bring, and as a leader, it's your job to deliver. But where do you focus? Where do you direct your time, your team, your budget, and your emotional energy?

We're learning this together on the North Star Leaders Podcast. In this podcast, I talk to purpose-driven leaders about the choices that they make to create audacious economic value while also realizing their distinctive purpose. I'm Lindsay Pedersen, brand strategist, author of Forging an Ironclad Brand, and host of the North Star Leaders Podcast.

Let's get to it. Today, I am really happy to be joined by Heidi Bullock. Heidi is CMO of Tealium, the customer data platform.

Heidi, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Lindsay. It's great to be here. It's great to be with you. To start us off, Heidi, what's your favorite thing about what you do?

Heidi Bullock

My favorite thing about what I do? Well, so as a CMO, marketing is really psychology. It's really understanding people.

So I really enjoy that. I love understanding what makes people act, what makes people decide not to do something. And I think in a lot of ways, that's a core essence of marketing, right?

It's truly understanding people. And then that applies not only externally to who you're marketing to, but internally as well with your teams and going across an organization. So I love that.

And I love the creative nature of what we get to do sometimes.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, there are moments where we get to express creativity, and that's really fun. But even in the moments when we're being a leader and a marketer, we're kind of always trying to anticipate how is the other person going to feel and receive what we're saying and doing?

How's this going to land?

How's it going to motivate them? Where do they get demotivated? How can we kind of empathize with that state?

Heidi Bullock

Right. And so it's interesting, especially like I would say in B2B, I think a lot of the times marketing teams, and this isn't true for everyone, but in a lot of cases, it's like marketing teams will put out like a piece of content or they'll do a video or whatever it is. And I always ask my team, is that something you would watch?

Is that something you would engage with? And if the answer is no, let's not do it. It's interesting.

Like I think consumer brands often like they're so far ahead on this. They really do. I mean, and they can, they often have like larger teams to do the research and understand, okay, this is what our audience is going to react to.

But in B2B, I feel like if more marketers stopped and thought like you are marketing to a person, yes, they're buying a product for their business. They're still a person. They still want to be inspired or educated or entertained, right?

Like it's really kind of those three things and figure out what it is and make sure that you're standing out. And I love that. I think it's so fun.

Lindsay Pedersen

I think this kind of dichotomy between B2B and B2C is so interesting because there's, in some ways there are profound differences. There's differences in the team sizes. There are differences in the mediums, the budget.

There's huge difference in the budget. There's difference in the size of maybe it's a group of people making a decision, not just a single person making a decision. And yet not as much as made of what ties together B2B and B2C and what is actually the same, which is it's a human being who goes home at night with worries and joys.

And it's still a person who's making that decision.

Heidi Bullock

Right. And sometimes the decision is based not on what I think people... I think one thing in marketing is everyone likes to think it's a decision always based on data.

And we know that human beings don't operate that way, right? It's like, I might purchase something because that might help me get promoted. Or I might purchase something because I know that person really well. And we went to college together.

It's like, it's not always based on, well, the data is telling me X, Y, Z. And so always remembering even in a serious, more concerned purchase, you are selling to a person, like you said, that has stresses.

There's things they're trying to achieve in their day. And I think the marketers that can tap into that, it's always a really big advantage.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. There's the rational decision drivers. There are going to be some rational elements to make a decision, but there are some that are just ineffable drivers of decisions and that are more emotional or more oriented to identity or to avoiding fear or some emotion or going toward joy or feeling of security or peace of mind.

Those two drive decisions. And in a lot of cases, it's actually the main thing driving the decision. It's not in the backseat.

Heidi Bullock

Yeah. And I think a lot of people sometimes can make the mistake that, oh, it's this perfect database decision. And in a lot of cases, as we know, it's not.

It's, oh, we had an amazing lunch with the client. And we all know that that can work. And it's like, because people at the end of the day, they're going to do business with folks that they like, and they feel like are hearing them.

It just makes, I think, marketing and selling in today's era, it is hard. And I think it's a noisy time. And so I just think always coming back to, it's easy to get overwhelmed, especially, I feel like I'm sure we're you know, I think a lot of people, I feel like right now they're getting overwhelmed.

But if you just stop and always come back to you're selling to a person, and it's getting inside that person's head or, or that segments kind of mindset, and understanding it, it really can be helpful.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, speaking of data, you I know, started your career, not in marketing, but in molecular biology. So tell my listeners more about that journey from molecular biology to marketing leadership.

Heidi Bullock

Absolutely. So I mean, I think the first thing that I would say to anyone listening to this, because I feel like when I was in college, it was a mindset of like, you know, we all go to college. I was 17 when I went to college. And it's like, you better know what you're going to do.

And it's like, in the world where now people have multiple careers, thank goodness for that. It's like, how boring would it be to be the same thing for all those years that we're going to live. And I think that I started in molecular biology, I felt like I ended up doing that because I love solving problems, which that's a lot of what it is.

It's like, hey, here's this system that you might not understand. And it's really if you think about a lot of scientists, you have a hypothesis, you're collecting data, you stay neutral, you try to keep your opinions, you know, you want to look at everything that you're seeing what you're observing what data is telling you, and then you test it and find out what's true. And to me, what a natural progression into marketing, because I think like going back to what we said, a lot of times in marketing, people have a playbook, and they're just like, I'm going to just do what I did at the last job.

And, you know, I feel like the environment has changed so much, like a playbook that I used five years ago, I don't think would work now. I think that scientific background has really helped me in marketing. But the transition to answer your question was I worked in research, and I used to have a lot of the salespeople say, gosh, the way you talk about this, we understand it, like, maybe you could do the overview instead of these other people.

And so it really became, I think I transitioned because of storytelling and being able to make something that's complex, accessible and removing friction, which I think everyone should be able to do. We've all worked in companies where it's like somebody makes something so complicated. And it's like, great.

So now no one can understand it. Now, that person probably has a reason for doing it that way, or maybe they're not, you know, I think sometimes people fall in love with complexity.

And I feel like I'm the opposite.

I feel like if you understand something, well, we should all be able to talk about things that any person can understand. Like, I always think I should be able to take a complex scientific technology or whatever it is, and my mom should be able to get it. I should be able to get it.

And again, like at a high level, right? I think for me, I made that transition because I think people recognize like, wow, like we need to be able to go sell this stuff and communicate it.

And you have kind of bridged that gap.

And I think that that's something that I've always, you know, there's plenty of things I'm not good at, but that is something that I think that I can take like very complex ideas and break them down in a way that people get. And it's also, they understand the reasoning behind it.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, and I hear that it's a skill for you, but it also is something that really lights you up. So it's good for them, but it's also good for you. Like, it seems like it's like a natural superpower for you.

Heidi Bullock

Well, maybe it's a power. I don't know. But yeah, I just because I've sat on the other side, right? We've all been on the other side where it's like, why is this being explained in a way that like, it's so abstract or so esoteric. And I mean, we all can think of examples like that. And it's like, you're kind of isolating people.

And the whole, it's like, if you want somebody to again, be able to sell your product, which again, could be internal selling or external, they better get it. And so for me, that's a really important thing.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, and I just had sort of epiphany while you were saying it isolates people when there's complexity that is not being made accessible to them. It feels kind of isolating. There's something almost like, I don't belong here.

There's something very primal about that feeling. And just to your first point about just loving the psychology of working with people and with customers that you get to kind of understand them. That seems like that bridge with what you're so good at, which is taking something that otherwise is super complicated and making it something that they can understand as well.

Heidi Bullock

Right. And I think we all know this, like, you've probably heard this many times, but like when you're studying something new, the best way to become good at something is to be able to teach it. Right.

And in a way, that's what we're doing. And I just feel like when you see somebody's face, like light up or get excited, it's like, I understand it now or make it make sense. For me, that's a really good feeling.

I love that feeling. I love when people get it. That's true.

And in marketing, we're all putting out messages into the market. Again, whether you're, you know, a consumer brand, a fashion brand, it's like sometimes people do something really artsy and it's like, yeah, but is your audience, are they getting it? And if they do, it's like amazing that connection's made and it feels really good.

And it's the same, I would say in B2B. It's like, if you are putting a message out there and you see the audience getting it and it's making sense, that that's really good.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, I'm intrigued by, you said there's sort of a tendency sometimes to be in love with the complexity of what you're building, of what you're testing, what you're researching. I wonder what that comes from. Like, why is there such a gravitational pull toward the complex?

Because what you're saying makes so much sense and it feels so compelling. So why is it not everybody's superpower? Like, it's so interesting.

Heidi Bullock

I think there's probably two reasons. I'd say the first one is probably just like, for some people, it's just maybe a lack of awareness. Like they get it and it's so clear to them.

How could other people possibly not get it? That's one. And then two, if you think about it, you hold the position of power, right?

If you're the only one that can explain something, what a great position to be in. But really, I would argue it's the worst. Because again, like all of us in organizations, what we're trying to do is scale.

That's what we do. So we want more and more people. Like if I'm the only person that can tell the technology story, that's not good because I'm everywhere, right?

And so to me, it's a success when I see other people, wow, they can tell the story. And again, it might have their spin on it, but that's amazing. That's great.

And so I think if you're confident, it shouldn't bother you. But I do see it in a lot of technology companies. I have to say, I've worked in Silicon Valley for a long time and I've worked in tech companies and it's not uncommon.

And my feeling is like, again, those individuals are very powerful because they're the quote, only ones that can tell the story. And I think the real success is having, again, anybody should be able to tell the story.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, and you use the word scale. I think that that's really the difference because somebody, yeah, in a way, when you know something or understand something that others around you don't, there is kind of a power asymmetry in that moment for that thing. But if what you are trying to do is scale that thing, then the complexity then becomes the enemy.

Like the complexity is only like in your favor if you want to be the only one who is able to drive growth in that thing, which means it's not going to grow that much.

Heidi Bullock

That's right. And so I think it's kind of like unlocking, it's like having the self-awareness to say like, okay, wow, I might be interested in this and it's super cool, but I need to be able to talk about it in a different way that more people get it. And then also appreciating that I may be an expert and that's great, but if I can't make other people successful and equally have some of that same expertise, that's going to be limiting.

So I think it all comes back to in business, it's understanding the end game. And as you know, I mean, there's often a lot of different personalities in companies and that's the name of the game. But I think just always coming back to what are we trying to do?

We're trying to grow our business. We're trying to make customers happy. And I think if everyone can kind of come back to those goals and take out the ego side of it, a lot more can get accomplished.

Lindsay Pedersen

The more that people all want to grow this thing and expand it in the world, the more that they too will embrace making the idea more accessible with storytelling, with other ways of simplifying and synthesizing. You brought up AI earlier and this Gen AI feels really relevant for the conversation of synthesizing and to some extent with simplifying.

So is this a part of, I can tell and knowing you this is something that has predated Gen AI, but is it helpful for people who are still trying to be good storytellers internally and externally to use Gen AI to help them with that?

Heidi Bullock

I completely think it is. I don't know why somebody wouldn't because again, it's just more information. Like to me, there's two parts to it, right?

It's understanding. I mean, I feel like what is amazing about AI, you can actually see how maybe your story in the market is landing, how people are perceiving it. That's kind of one.

And then the second part of it is great, like how, or maybe even a simple example that I think a lot of people can relate to, like my competitor's story is landing. What are the differences between our story? And think about this in the past, that would be a challenging exercise to get data on, right?

It's like, I'd have to get an agency or have five people on my team, and even then it's often data that people aren't necessarily going to believe. But the beauty with AI, if you ask the right questions, and then you can kind of see like, oh, my competitor's story, they always seem to be highlighting, I'm making this up, but like ease of use or this other area. And then you're like, great.

Now I know an angle that I might want to double down on, or I might understand that I need to focus on something completely different, right? Completely different value prop that doesn't overlap. So I feel like AI in general is just, I mean, again, we'll, a lot is unfolding right now, but I would say in marketing and that I'll just speak to that.

I think it's just been a game changer because again, I feel like there are questions that I always have that historically would have taken me forever to get answers to. And now you're just like, well, and I'm not saying it's always like perfectly, perfectly 99.9% right, but it's directional. Great.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah.

Heidi Bullock

That's good for me to know, right? Or, or gosh, you know, like I'm thinking about these market segments and what do these all have in common? I mean, think about in the past, that would not be an easy thing to necessarily, you might have to go to your data science team and that's a week or, you know, now it's like, okay, I can get some of that so much more quickly.

So I feel like it just enables people to, in a lot of ways be so much less dependent and move quicker, which I love.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. And so much in there is around a tolerance for imperfection, right? Like I love the word directional here because someday and maybe sometimes it is 99.99% accurate, but it's actually not really the point. The point is like, there's such a heavy lift that gets you from zero to 75% there. And if that heavy lift is no longer there and you recognize that it's 75%, not 99%, that's an enormous step. And so, yeah, like don't let the perfect be the enemy of the ever start.

Heidi Bullock

Yeah. That could be the name of today's talk track, right? Yeah.

I mean, that in like, if we're talking about marketing in general, especially now, because it's basically like, I feel like every organization, it's like, there's so much happening quickly. And I do see like, especially as companies get larger, it's such an easy thing where it's like, well, we need to go ask this team or these, and it's just, that'll really kill you as a company. And I think it's just, sometimes I do feel like with my team, I'm like, 80% is great.

There's some things, of course, where that, like, if it's like a legal document, no PR, no, but there are things like, Hey, it's a campaign. Let's try it. We don't need to get that last 1% perfect.I'd rather get it out fast. Yes. Yeah.

I agree with that statement. And I do think coming back to AI, it's just an amazing, there's so much that people can do. And I, I do sometimes hear people like, Oh, it's I don't quite get it.

Or I'm not using it. I just think like with anything, just always being curious in marketing, that's like a prerequisite, right? Especially like, you know, really creative, like consumer brands.

I'm like, that's amazing. How could I think of some component of that and try that in? Yeah.

I mean, it's amazing. It's like, I always look at like interesting fashion brands because they're so based on emotion and in a way it's like different, but there are parallels. I love it.

Lindsay Pedersen

That's such a fun thought starter and kind of curiosity creator. Like what would, you know, how would like a brand I'm loving right now as Peloton, what would Peloton do with this insurance business that I'm looking at? Like what's something that they're doing that actually is not like, just because they're a fitness company and we're a financial services company, we totally could do something like that.

Heidi Bullock

Right. Well, it's like, think about it. Peloton has made exercise fun.

It's like the instructors, it's like they all have personalities. They're their own, you know, kind of like mini celebrities or, you know, micro influencers, whatever. And some of them are big influencers now.

And it's like, so an insurance company, could you make it fun? Could you add a personality?

So it's like, that's what I'm saying.

And I think maybe historically insurance companies are like, this is our playbook. This is what we do. And I think the key is looking at like, but people resonate with things that some of it is just universal. It's like I said, everyone loves to be entertained, you know, educated, inspired. What is that angle? And I mean, you even think about like Geico, right?

Like they've made certain parts of that business interesting and fun. And it's a good brand. Everyone thinks about certain things when I say that brand.

Right. And it's like, I think it's very cool to look at companies or like Duolingo. Like I think that that is the most clever thing.

It's like a language app. And they're right. A lot of people, they don't want to do their Spanish for their friends.

It's like, I don't want to do my Mandarin today, but they make it fun. And I know that the owl has since moved on, but the little, you know, owl that reminded you, I mean, that's so clever.

There's social media for people that are into that.

I think it's some of the best I've ever seen. It's incredible.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, I'm a huge fan. And the things like the owl or, you know, visual identity, those things can evolve. But what doesn't change is kind of the essence of the brand as, you know, in that case, fun, engaging.

So there is a unifying idea that must have a lot of human resonance. Otherwise, it wouldn't be in the, you know, Geico, Peloton, Duolingo. They wouldn't be such successful brands.

Why not our, you know, customer data platform? Why not our online banking? There's something there.

I think it's so interesting how within a company, especially when you're a C-level marketing person, you're sort of marketing internally, right? Like you're in charge. How does that play out? Like, how do you really build the relationship and people's internal respect for marketing among functions that are like, you know, maybe traditionally the other end of the spectrum for marketing? How do you do that?

Heidi Bullock

Yeah, I think that is such an important question. Because I think when I look at a lot of C-level marketers, CMOs, or VPs of marketing, it's something that a lot of folks do not invest enough in. They think when they first get the job, they think a lot about external, right?

Which is good. It's important. Or they think about directly maybe their team.

But I really, when I come into any role, and I think about this a lot, your job is to market, obviously externally, grow the business, great, you know, you want to have like good growth, all the things, great loyalty, retention. But internally, it's like, if people don't understand what you're doing and why, that is just a recipe for bad things. And for whatever reason, maybe some of it like, I think in marketing, because again, it's so visual, a lot of people think we're all marketers, right?

Everybody can look at a website and have an opinion. And so I think it's really good in organizations. This is my thing.

I have two ways that I communicate very, very regularly. We have an executive staff meeting, and I have an overview I give every week. And I have the top three things of marketing that you should know this week.

And I also include a customer testimonial. So if anyone's like, hey, I want to talk about this customer this week, there you go. And so I include also our data where we're at, you know, with our pipeline, our bookings, like all the numbers, which is really important.

And then I include other things that are important for that week, just as like a backup. I have done that for years. And that way, good or bad, I'm being transparent.

No, I never want anyone to say what's marketing doing. It's like, it's there. And it is global, and I communicate that.

And then we also have something that we on our team send out weekly. And it's just, it's really for our revenue teams. And it's called helping you sell.

And it's like, these are the hot hits for this week that we want you to be aware of. Like, it could be we were recently in the Gartner MQ as a leader, like we might highlight something like that, we might highlight a new program, or we're going to be at, you know, a conference, that type of thing. And so I just think those types of communication mechanisms.

And also, at my current company, we will do we have a monthly marketing council. And so sometimes there's topics where it's not going to be just the marketing team deciding it might be, we want to relook at like, how we're positioned in the market, or we're finding that some new technology is coming into play a lot with customers, we need to be talking about it, right? We're not going to always know everything.

And I think that humility is important. And so bringing everyone together and having those discussions. But I also think when people take these roles, I always think about what's your short term wins, and then your long term, like, say, as an example, we want to redo the brand.

Well, okay, that's not happening in two weeks. So as you know, right? But it's like, you need to educate people on that.

But you need to tell them, here are the stages that you will start to see things. This is kind of what the journey will look like. And these are milestones along the way.

So they're like, that person's doing something, and we'll check in. Now, in that same area, I like to say, but here are some quick wins that I will work on, like, say, as an example, you join a company, I'm making this up, but it's like, our growth isn't good. We need help.

Okay, no problem. We'll get some great programs going right away. We'll actively work on pipeline.

That's like one parallel track, get some wins on the board. And then in parallel, we'll work on some of these other brand initiatives. But I think the key is just communicating that.

And so people know, okay, like, you said, you're going to create pipeline, well, in a lot of organizations, unless you're consumer facing, that's not going to be again, in two days, but we'll probably have meetings this month. So I will promise you or you know, we will aim to get x amount of meetings that we know will then can get converted to pipeline. So it's all around educating and communicating timing.

Because to be fair, a lot of CEOs, they're not going to know that it's out there. It might not even be their job right away to know that. But it's our jobs as marketers to communicate those things.

And when you don't guess what people have wild imaginations. And I think I always say to people, if people don't see it, they think it's not happening. So it's your job to make sure they get it and they see it.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, oh my gosh, I love this so much. And this idea of kind of, I think the three big kind of buckets in there are, we're demystifying it. But you know, we're showing the numbers, we're showing what happened this week, we're making something that seems a little bit abstract, concrete.

So we're demystifying that we're making it accessible and useful in the immediate term for people who can use what we're working on. So it's not ivory tower, it's really useful now. And then also, you mentioned the customer testimonial.

And I know that's not taking up a ton of airtime, but that seems like a real empathy building tool for the team. Like you're sort of, you're giving an empathy building tool, like hearing exactly what a customer says. There's nothing like that.

Nothing can replace that for kind of like feeling in your gut, what you're building in the world and like how it matters to people. So you also get to be sort of like a gateway to the customer for people who don't get to hear as much.

Heidi Bullock

Right. And it's exciting. It's like, here's a customer that did X this weekend and their success. And that's a great thing to be able to hear. And I think, but kind of going back to like the initial question, I think a lot of teams, like you always want to remember, like your marketing, you have like personas and segments internally too. So, and you know, what you talk about with your exec team and what you bring to the table there, it's like you said, like it has to be consumable and useful for them.

So if teams like go on about something that like a CFO is just like, I really don't care. I just want to know that you're going to hit the number. Really, at most companies, that's what it is. It's like be on your budget, like don't overspend, don't underspend and hit the number. And it's like, but then other groups might want to know something different. Like maybe the product team's like, Hey, you guys were just at XYZ event.

What did you hear people saying? So it's like just understanding that. I think that dichotomy is important, but I have a big believer in just the communication, but being consistent and not too much, because I think that it's easy to, to almost be talking all the time and then it's too hard for people to track it.

So, you know, figure out your channels. It's like, Hey, it might be this meeting every week. It might be a Slack channel that everyone pays close attention to, but just make sure that you're always communicating good and bad.

And that's the other thing I think in marketing, you always have to be, you know, somewhat honest about not somewhat, you have to be honest about what's happening. It's like this campaign didn't do well. Yeah.

We tried it. We killed it because it didn't look good. And we're moving on.

And, and I think that that's something that in marketing really helps with credibility. You can't always just say everything's amazing because we all know it isn't.

Not amazing for anyone all the time. And I think just being more vulnerable and identifying.

And for me, when I have somebody on my team, I'm okay with something not working.

I just want to know what you're doing about it and that it's getting addressed. And the big thing is like, don't keep doing it.

Lindsay Pedersen

Sure. We're learning. We're learning.

It's going to make us better next time. Oh my gosh. This has been such an amazing conversation.

As we wrap up, do you have time for a few rapid fire, just kind of fun questions, single word or phrase.

Heidi Bullock

Okay.

Lindsay Pedersen

What is your favorite kind of candy?

Heidi Bullock

Uh, sweet tarts.

Lindsay Pedersen

Are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Heidi Bullock

Extrovert.

Lindsay Pedersen

Are you a dog person or a cat person or neither or both? Oh, you're a dog person.

Heidi Bullock

Cats have attitude.

Lindsay Pedersen

Do you have a dog? Do you have a dog in your family?

Heidi Bullock

I do not right now. But someday.

Lindsay Pedersen

What is your favorite thing to do on a Saturday afternoon?

Heidi Bullock

Go hiking.

Lindsay Pedersen

And lastly, what is the most recent book fiction or nonfiction that you have loved?

Heidi Bullock

Oh, I have just read Violetta by Isabel. I think it's her last name's Alondé. And I loved it. It's about a woman and she's writing basically to her grandson about her life.

It's just, there's so much in it. And I just, it's incredible. I recommend it to anyone. It's a great, great book.

Lindsey Pedersen

Isabella, by…

Heidi Bullock

It's Violetta

Lindsay Pedersen

Violetta by Isabel Allende.

Heidi Bullock

Yeah, Violetta. It basically just goes through like different history and just kind of like, it's got a really bunch of interesting like personal challenges in it, but I cut it down. I thought, I thought it was great.

Lindsay Pedersen

Okay. Thank you, Heidi. Okay, how do listeners who want to learn more about you or Tealium learn more?

Heidi Bullock

They can learn more by following me on LinkedIn. So that's probably a good place. And we also our website is just tealium.com.

And we have a lot of great content and material there. But I'm always happy for people to reach out to me over LinkedIn. I'm on Twitter or X.

Lindsay Pedersen

This is a pattern on this show. I've noticed. Yes.

Heidi Bullock

I'm going to consolidate channel a little. I absolutely will. I get messages there. People reach out to me there too.

Lindsay Pedersen

But okay. Awesome. Thank you so much, Heidi.

Heidi Bullock

Thank you.

Lindsay Pedersen

Thanks for listening to this episode of North Star leaders. Make sure you don't miss an episode by subscribing on your favorite podcast app. If you know of a North Star leader whose insights would be valuable for this community, please message me on ironcladbrandstrategy.com. Also on that website are show notes, transcripts and a way to sign up for our monthly newsletter. I hope you join us again for another episode of North Star leaders.