North Star Leaders Podcast

Lindsay Pedersen

The world needs what only your business can bring. And as a leader, it's your job to deliver. But where do you focus?

Where do you direct your time, your team, your budget, and your emotional energy? We're learning this together on the North Star Leaders Podcast. In this podcast, I talk to purpose-driven leaders about the choices that they make to create audacious economic value, while also realizing their distinctive purpose.

I'm Lindsay Pedersen, brand strategist, author of Forging an Ironclad Brand, and host of the North Star Leaders Podcast. Let's get to it. Today, I am really happy to be joined by Jason Ing.

Jason is CMO at Typeface, the generative AI platform for enterprises. Jason, welcome to the show. To start us off, Jason, what is the most energizing part of your job that those on the outside would never guess?

Jason Ing

Well, I get to work with amazing people, although I don't think that's a surprise. But I think in working in the AI space, you see customers at various stages on their adoption journey, and just seeing people's curiosity and their willingness to really lean in on what is probably the biggest change and shift in our business lifetime, if you will. I think it's just really exciting to see how willing and open companies are embracing these changes.

Lindsay Pedersen

Say more about that person who's leaning in with curiosity, even though it's kind of a vulnerable place for us humans right now. What is it that you observe that's inspiring?

Jason Ing

I think there's a willingness to go in with almost like a childlike wonder of like wanting to learn this, recognizing that however they did things or whatever they thought, it's not that they completely forget about it, but they're willing to put it aside in order to learn and grow. And they're willing to make mistakes. And sometimes they're even willing to be silly about some of the things that they go through.

So I've gone through that own journey myself as well. And I think it's just a great time that if you ever wanted to feel vulnerable, where everyone was kind of going through that same thing, we're all going along this journey together. God, I love that.

Lindsay Pedersen

I've never thought of that, like the childlike wonder, the beginner's mind of being early in an era of our species.

Jason Ing

Yeah, people are going to, I mean, I'm sure our kids, our grandkids are going to be talking about that time when, you know, the AI generation was coming to fruition, just like they probably would have talked about the industrial revolution or even, you know, for some of us, like the internet revolution. I think we're at that same inflection point where things are changing even at a faster rate. And so if we had this conversation two weeks ago, I might give you a very different vantage point.

But since I've been fooling around with some of these newer tools, like cloud co-work and cloud code, it's really opened my eyes to the fact that, wow, this stuff is powerful and it's changing so fast.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, it's changing so fast and our relationship with it is changing so fast.

Jason Ing

Yeah.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, you and I share something in that we both started our marketing careers in consumer packaged goods. I was at Clorox, you were at Procter & Gamble. And then both of us also spent most of our careers in tech after consumer packaged goods.

I'd love to hear you talk about a moment or an example where marketing in a B2B setting is similar to marketing something like diapers or pet food.

Jason Ing

Yeah. So my career has been split across B2C and B2B. Probably spent the first, I would say, 12 to 15 years in B2C.

So first at P&G and then at Xbox and Prime Video, which were primarily consumer technology businesses. But then when I made the move to AWS, that was my first role in the B2B space, where I've been at for the last 10 plus years. And what was really interesting was, yeah, there was a lot to learn around how to work with sales.

You're not distributing through retailers or you're going direct to customers. So learning pipeline and the sales process, MQLs and things like that, that's very much B2B. But what you realize is that the fundamentals of marketing, you're marketing to people at the end of the day, you're marketing to humans.

And while there's certainly a more rational component to why someone chooses to buy certain software, you're still talking to a person who has needs, attitudes, behaviors, who have certain aspirations about what they want to achieve at work. And so there is an emotional storytelling component to B2B that people often forget, or not every company does particularly well, but those who do both the winning hearts and minds of customers are the ones that I think really stand out as strong B2B businesses. And I've always made sure that everything that I've done marketing-wise really speaks to human truths and what people are hoping to achieve and how they want to feel empowered by the things that they buy on the B2B side.

Lindsay Pedersen

Do you think that there's too much made of a dichotomy between B2B and B2C? Is that a mirage?

Jason Ing

Yeah, I think it is a bit of a mirage, but it's probably cultural too, because when you're in a B2B world, you're interacting with a lot of folks on the product side as well as on the sales side. Whereas when I started at P&G, there's two different types of brand manager roles. There are the brand managers who are very much tied to the region.

So I started out in P&G Canada, and so I was very close to my retail counterparts over there because we were trying to get distribution. So we spent a lot of time more on the pricing and the promotional stuff that happened and the shelving and things like that. Whereas you have the central brand managers who are focused more on the advertising side.

So I think depending on who you're around, when you're a good B2B marketer, you're thinking really hard about the outcome because it's much more measurable. You're tied to usually some KPI, whereas a B2C marketer might be looking at top line revenue or market share because it's a much quicker turn and a quicker cycle. So there are certainly differences, but I think the root of understanding customers, understanding your marketing mix, your 4Ps or your 3Cs or whatever framework you like, I think a lot of those things are still true.

And I think we like to make it sound like it's different or almost tribal because of just the way you're surrounded, your day-to-day work environment might feel different, but it's all marketing at the end of the day.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. The word tribal really resonated with me.

It is a mirage that it's different. And also that there's a cultural celebration of certain things that might be associated with B2B or over B2C. I mean, for example, like you said, with B2B, it tends to be a more considered choice with more rational rigor applied to it.

And then there's kind of this celebration of that rigor and analytical element that actually, I mean, it turns out that we have that analytical rigor in a consumer world as well. It's almost like a misconception to think that we're different.

Jason Ing

That's a great point because you have a lot of at-bats when you're in the B2C world, because if I buy Pampers and I don't like it, and I might buy Pampers because I saw an ad on TV or I saw Pampers being featured on a Walmart flyer. You try the product and then if you like it, you come back. And if you didn't, you choose something else.

Whereas in B2B, there's a lot of different touch points because it is considered. And depending on where you are in the purchase journey, if you're very early on, you might just be trying to understand like, who are the different vendors I could choose from? And then you go from awareness to consideration to preference down to purchase.

And you really only get that one at bat. Usually, you're signing a long-term contract or even in SaaS, you might sign a monthly, be on a monthly plan. But we all know that it's pretty sticky once you get used to and you're adopting a certain platform.

So there are differences that you have to adjust to. But it's just like if you were selling Pampers versus you were selling a luxury product, very different. The role of emotion might play differently in those different categories.

So it's all around understanding customer, I think, and what they go through when they're making that choice of what to go buy, that you just have to reverse engineer and figure out, how do I show up at those right touch points? And what does that person need to believe in order to choose me? And I think that's the same regardless of what you're selling.

And a good marketer can recognize that.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, it's like, well, first of all, there's sort of just to tease apart, another variable in here is just how considered the purchase is and price point. So if you were to take a B2B purchase, that's highly considered like a car or something. I actually don't know if this is true, but I imagine that more rigor goes into choosing which brand of car you buy, then which brand of diapers because the cost of being wrong is so much higher for getting the car purchase wrong.

Jason Ing

Totally. But both are kind of identity purchases in the sense that like, I mean, I buy a car just to get me from A to B, but most people will be moved by the Lexus commercial or whatever. And I think the thing that what we tried, what P&G and, you know, Clarks and others try to do is at the end of the day, these are commodity products, but they try to instill a certain identity that, oh, if you're a Pampers mom, you think a certain way versus a Huggies mom, even though it's not, it's probably arbitrary.

But I think in some ways, just the world we live in, you know, you attach some level of identity to the choices that you make on what to buy.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. Does that happen in B2B to the making a purchase that reaffirms identity?

Jason Ing

I do. I think so. And I think when I was at AWS, that was certainly the positioning we took was like, if you're innovative, if you are forward thinking, if you want the very best, you would choose AWS over any other platform at the time, because it actually was better back then.

I think the others have caught up or they've closed the gap. But it said something, it's that old IBM ad that said no one ever got fired for using IBM. So like, hey, if I use IBM, or if you were, you know, in a company and you needed a consulting service and you brought McKinsey, you were like, okay, you know, that's the safest thing.

And our business is great. And it's deserving of McKinsey services. Yeah, we thought that's not true.

But like, there is certainly an amount of identity that goes into like, I use these services or these tools, because they're the best and that says something about me. Or I've seen people talk about Salesforce versus Braze. And it's like, oh, the old school people use Salesforce.

But now like the new folks want to use Braze and whether that's true, and I'm not going to weigh in on that. But I have heard people look at their tooling, their martech stack as a signal of like, how advanced they are in terms of their sophistication.

Lindsay Pedersen

Isn't that interesting? Yeah, isn't that interesting that even something CRM can indicate how youthful or how with it or how zeitgeisty or in style you are? All of these purchase decisions are so brainstem oriented, you know, I'm the kind of mom who wants this type of diaper.

I'm the kind of manager who wants the best cloud services for my company. And even like the IBM, like, nobody got fired for hiring IBM. That is so brainstem that's so like psychological safety.

And so understanding that is useful, regardless of whether it's a B2B or B2C decision. If it's a human being you're selling to, they're going to have a brainstem.

Jason Ing

Yeah. And you know, I'm a big proponent of Daniel Kahneman, the late Nobel winning economist who came up with this thing called the availability heuristic. And I forgot the name of the book, Thinking Fast and Slow.

Yeah. And that it's all research backed affirmation of what is really top of mind awareness. Like you will choose the thing that comes top of mind when you're ready to make that purchase.

And I've seen varying studies that show some high percentage of your purchase choice will fall into one of those three or so choices in your consideration set, or you go down the path of either validating or invalidating those choices. And so as a marketer, it's really important to realize that that is brainstem stuff where you want to be planted in that person's mind when they're ready. And so a lot of the work that we do at Typeface is really to create thought leadership and to be seen as a leader or as a vendor with a point of view on the AI space.

And so we invest a lot of our energy in terms of making sure we're putting it out there and being seen.

Lindsay Pedersen

What is that point of view? How would you state it or how does Typeface state what is the stake in the ground?

Jason Ing

Yeah. So, you know, we call it flag planting. I often butcher it and call it plant flagging, but really it's this idea that AI is moving so fast and that you need a thought partner.

You not only need technology, but you need someone who you can partner with who's keeping up or staying ahead of those changes who can bring you along that journey. And one of the things that AI started out with, and some people are still stuck in this kind of era of AI, which is more generative AI, like how can I produce more content better and faster, more personalized? And that's all true.

But layering on top of that is AI is no longer just your intern or your assistant. It's like a teammate. And then eventually it's going to evolve into your system.

And so we are really bullish on the use of agents and that it's not just about giving you output, but it's about orchestrating is kind of the term we use and many others use around. There's different pieces to how you get your work done. Have AI kind of help stitch that all together in a way that's more consistent and automated so that you can get to your outcomes faster and that AI becomes part of the workflow or part of the system of work to get you to all of the promises that AI can eventually deliver for you.

So we are really a big believer in just that importance of orchestration, the importance of context, meaning like that agent or that system knows you, it has context on your business, on your brand. It's working alongside in many ways, like how you would work with a really, really smart person.

Lindsay Pedersen

What do you think, and this can be in the context of typeface or just as a marketing leader, what are the principles in marketing that even with AI will never change?

Jason Ing

Totally. I love this question because I think a lot about my P&G training and what it taught me and Amazon to a large extent too. And that is the customer is always central to what you do.

You can get lost in the bells and whistles of like how the technology works, but as the person who's training or orchestrating that system, you need to tell it what good looks like or great looks like. And everything kind of starts and ends with the customer. Like technology is just capability at the end of the day, but if you're not winning hearts and minds of those customers, if you're not making them successful or whatever outcome you're promising them, none of this actually matters.

And so to me, the technology piece and AI included is just a means to the end of winning customers. And so I think if I ever tell people one thing you should know as a marketer is really that level of customer obsession or that everything starts and ends with that customer. And then, I think a lot about timeless principles around people at the end of the day.

And people want to feel like whatever they choose to buy, it could be something that solves a problem for them. It could be something that they may aspire to do something and this is an ingredient to whatever that is. But ultimately, you have to never forget that as long as humans are still buying stuff, maybe agents will buy stuff someday, but you have to think about what it is you're solving and what value are you providing to people.

And I think if you're always using that as your North Star, like tactics are going to change, but that piece will always be enduring, in my opinion.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, and I hear a couple of things in there with being customer obsessed and customer centrality. One is empathy, like really feeling the pain that the person is in as a result of having this problem that you solve and like channeling everything about that person. And the other is just genuinely respecting and valuing that person because I think there are, and some of this is cultural too, right?

But there is with really neato, fancy tech products, there is sometimes the customer just doesn't get it or like, yeah, sort of an arrogance. And I think that ultimately, whether it's immediately or long term, people feel that. It's like using their insight, but also just knowing that it's all important.

And there's like a dignity to that too.

Jason Ing

I 100% agree. And you know, not everyone, like sometimes marketers or businesses make the mistake of trying to be all things to all people, but you should know who you're for and who you're not for and be very clear. I mean, there may be a small handful of products that are for everyone, but that's few and far between.

But it's like, it is having empathy, being walking, you know, miles in your customer's shoes and understanding what that lived experience and what your role is in that. But also, I'm also very clear about not trying to overextend that, like at the end of the day, certain products should, you know, if it fulfills some psychological need or a sense of identity, great. But if it becomes an unhealthy obsession, or people are looking to the products they use to fulfill things that physical things aren't designed to fulfill, because I hear a lot of times brands like to talk about we want to be in culture.

And I think sometimes brands can naturally find their way into culture. But when they try to manufacture that, I also cringe a little bit because you're going too far, you're occupying a lane that you don't really need to, or you shouldn't want to play. And at the end of the day, it's kind of knowing the role that you play in customers lives doing that thing very well, but not trying to go too far beyond that, in my opinion, this is so deep.

Lindsay Pedersen

There's a tension here, right? Because we're talking about, you know, diapers, which is whatever gel and paper and plastic and substrate is a reflection of the kind of mom I am. And Pampers has done that.

And I worked on Clorox bleach, it was the same thing. And that's laudable, especially for a really mature category with product parody, like diapers and bleach. At the same time, there's a humility, in some ways, to not trying to be quite so lofty in the mind of your audience.

Like, I don't know when I'm buying a replacement part for a lock on Amazon, I really am just trying to buy a replacement lock. Like, I'm not at the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, nor do I want to be like, I would actually find it really annoying if it were actually I bought a mouse once a computer mouse. And I remember the packaging said something incredibly inspirational, like, this is life or something like that, so lofty.

I'm like, it's an effing mouse. So there's something really kind of reading the room and humility as well. But I also want to be the last person who says you should try to be bigger, like you should try to be bring more value than a piece of plastic and a battery, which is a mouse, and also be happy with the problem that you're solving.

Don't try to overreach into their top of their self-actualization ladder.

Jason Ing

Yes, I totally agree. And in the B2B space, that happens quite a bit too, where companies will say stuff like, transform and accelerate your business. Or like, think about the buzzword du jour.

And it's like, they'll all say the same thing. And that level of loftiness kind of becomes unbelievable. People are smart, they can see through that.

And I do remember like, as at AWS counter positioning, where it's like, you know what, we're going to position ourselves more as an ingredient brand, kind of like, you know, the Intel inside where it's like, we're the cloud that powers the world. Now, that is a big statement. But it's told through the lens of all these things that actually do power the world that, you know, if you imagine a world without Netflix, or what have you, it's like, it's a different place.

And the common thread was AWS. And so the way we told that story was very, I would say a little indirect and humble, but it made that message very clear that we were the ones that made these things possible. So our tagline was AWS is how, and they still use that tagline.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love it so much. I love it. I love it.

Jason Ing

Yeah, it's knowing your place and good marketers will have good judgment. And they will read the room, as you say, and kind of know what your buyer or your prospect is thinking, and be able to thread that needle of like getting the message in the right spot.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love that. Yeah, there's an element along with the humility is you have to earn your right to say what AWS actually deserves to say that. That took a long time and a lot of careful and rigorous building and develop.

So there's also like, be aware of how far up you have the right to go in the mind of your target audience. And because it's super cringy and annoying to be on the other side of a message where you're like, it's a mouse like it's, and then it breeds mistrust, like it not only doesn't land, it actually leaves a bad taste in their mouth and they're not going to come back.

Jason Ing

Yeah, I 100% agree.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, this has been so fun. I love talking with a fellow classically trained marketer, because all of these elements, it's like the more things change, the more they stay the same. All of this is so evergreen.

So I'm wrapping up with you now. And I have about let's see five rapid fire questions to ask you before we sign off. Does that sound good?

Jason Ing

Sounds great.

Lindsay Pedersen

Okay. First question is, what's a book or a movie or a TV show that changed your life?

Jason Ing

Oh, how many? I would say recently, though, I read the book, I'm late to this party, but guns, germs and steel.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love it.

Jason Ing

And it's the way I view the way I've heard about some of the findings. But then when I realized the importance of geography and how that shapes civilizations, based on your proximity to food, and your ability to grow crops and how that then inform which countries got conquered and who did the is just like mind blowing, especially in the day and age where we you know, we talk a lot about culture, race and things like that. Like you read that book, it's 30 or 40 years old.

And you're like, wow, if you haven't gone through that, like, that is something that is just so true in terms of how that's shaped the world that we live in.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love it. This is like so in keeping with our theme of all old things are new again. It's like, yeah, same.

Okay, if you did not live in Seattle or the Seattle area, where would you live?

Jason Ing

Well, I'm from Toronto, so I'd probably be back home.

Lindsay Pedersen

Toronto. Okay. How do you take your coffee or tea?

Jason Ing

Black in the morning because I fast but the coffee I have now has a lot of cream in

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh, so the first cup is black and then you'll add white stuff to it later after, in the afternoon.

Good distinction. Okay. What do you love to do on a Sunday afternoon?

Jason Ing

Watch the Seahawks play if it's football season. If not, in the summer, I like to hike around here or go to the driving range and hit some golf balls.

Lindsay Pedersen

Awesome. Okay. And then finally, what is your favorite way to work out?

Jason Ing

Weights. I just like hitting the gym and just training.

Doing weights. Awesome.

Lindsay Pedersen

Awesome. Oh my gosh. So fun. Where can folks learn more about you, Jason, and Typeface?

Jason Ing

Yeah. So, you know, you can learn more about typeface on our website, typeface.ai. And I'll just do a quick plug. We just launched a new platform called Marketing Orchestration Engine.

So check that out. And then you can learn more about me. Find me on LinkedIn, follow me, add me.

I'd be happy to hear from folks.

Lindsay Pedersen

Awesome. And we'll include links to those in the show notes. Jason, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Jason Ing

Thank you, Lindsay. My pleasure.

Lindsay Pedersen

Thanks for listening to this episode of North Star Leaders. Make sure you don't miss an episode by subscribing on your favorite podcast app. If you know of a North Star Leader whose insights would be valuable for this community, please message me on ironcladbrandstrategy.com.

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