North Star Leaders Podcast

Lindsay Pedersen

The world needs what only your business can bring, and as a leader, it's your job to deliver. If you're wondering where purpose-driven leaders direct their time, team, budget, and energy, you'll find out here on the North Star Leaders Podcast. I'm Lindsay Pedersen, brand strategist, author of Forging an Ironclad Brand, and host of this show.

Remember, purpose isn't what you hang on the wall. It's what you do when the choice is hard. Today, I am really happy to be joined by Jeremy Korst.

Jeremy is a multi-hyphenate. He is a many-time CMO and executive, including with T-Mobile, Microsoft, and Avalara. He currently consults, lectures, and writes extensively around AI adoption.

Jeremy, welcome to the show.

Jeremy Korst

It is such a pleasure to be here, Lindsay, my longtime friend and colleague.

Lindsay Pedersen

I know. It's so good to see you. Okay, so to kick off our whole conversation, what I wanted to start with is, what is the most energizing part of what you get to do in your work that others from the outside wouldn't have guessed?

Jeremy Korst

Those who know me would probably guess, but I don't know if I've been called a multi-hyphenate before, but that makes a ton of sense. Of course you are. I've been grasping for a word to try to explain my multivariate, crazy life.

Lindsay Pedersen

It's like J-Lo or Ariana Grande or sing, dance, act, theater, TV, screen. That's you.

Jeremy Korst

Like that, but more nerdy subjects, yes.

Lindsay Pedersen

Sure. Well, okay. That's why you and I are friends.

Jeremy Korst

That's right. But no, like I just get energy from variety through my work and through my life. I get a lot of variety. I feel like I am constantly learning, constantly being exposed to things.

At work, I get to engage with some of the world's largest companies on some of their toughest problems and founders who are trying to start from nothing. So with everything in between, I've also been able to organize my life. And in the work I do, I get to work with some of the leading academics, both on the consulting projects I work with, co-authoring with HBR, and now in the classroom with them.

So lots of fun. But then also outside of work, as you know, I am a pretty passionate fisherman and a hiker. And so through all of that, I wake up every morning pretty energized and relatively tired by the time I have my glass of whiskey at night.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh my God. Well, if that isn't a day well spent, I don't know what is. So for listeners, Jeremy and I have known each other like 15, 16, 17 years.

And when we first started working together, you mentioned to me that it was really a shift for you when you and I were working together at T-Mobile and you came to think of brand as a strategic leadership tool that governs the whole organization. And I'm lucky that I got to be part of that mindset shift with you. Talk about the before and after, like before having that tool or seeing it as brand as that meta tool and after.

Jeremy Korst

Yeah, I give you a ton of credit for enlightening me about this very powerful tool. And so I came at this from my background had been in strategy, finance, economics, so much more harder analytical rigor. I'd ended up in technology first and product development and product management and then into marketing.

And I'd learned a lot of my marketing skills on the job and from really, really smart folks like you. And I'd always been, let's say, a classical strategist. Like I said, from a more analytically rigorous point of view, the Porter Five Forces.

And while I felt really comfortable with competitive positioning and market structure and those things, frankly, I was really struggling to have a better way of trying to create enthusiasm, engagement, embrace of the strategy throughout the organization. And through the work that we had done, I really came to learn about brand as not only in its strategic importance in marketing and just how important it is for the marketing function. But moreover, like you said, across the entire organization is that brand and not branding, as many of the folks that came from my background would think about it around visual identity and some of the marketing communications.

But as this bigger strategic notion, it just provides this much more tangible and emotional way to connect the entire organization around a common purpose, whether you're building the product, whether you're promoting the product, whether you're supporting the product, when you can actually visualize who your target customers are, who are you trying to serve and why. Some of the day-to-day prioritization and other questions just become so much easier to talk about and make decisions. And you helped me kind of grasp that, and then I have ran with that throughout the rest of my career and saw it not only super effectively used in the work that we did together at T-Mobile, but then as when I went on to Microsoft.

And I'll tell you in particular there, when I was asked to come back to Microsoft and we were dealing with the challenges of Windows 8, which if you haven't read or remember was a, well, let's just say a massacre. And so trying to recover from that, the way that my team in particular was able to use brand as a rallying cry and a unifying strategy that really, I think others would tell you, across the entire organization became the foundation that created the success of what was Windows 10. So anyway, a long way to wave, but you made me a believer and taught me a ton of those skills and tools that I've been excited to put to use throughout the rest of my career.

Lindsay Pedersen

Wow.

Jeremy Korst

Thank you.

Lindsay Pedersen

Goodness. Well, thank you for reflecting that back to me. It's interesting because a number of things in there are intriguing to me.

One is that brand, you know, like the contrast between Porter's Five Forces, kind of like the old school strategy framework and brand to me, and maybe this is because I came up in the classically trained marketer at Clorox. They're not really different. It's just that the only difference is it's almost like two sides of the same coin.

Like brand has kind of more of a human, vibrant element, but brand that doesn't take into consideration competitive positioning from Porter's Five Forces and otherwise, it's kind of a limp brand. So I don't feel those as very different. But what I just heard from you, and I hadn't thought about it this way, is like it's almost like the palatability or the engage ability of the strategy.

Maybe it's even essentially the same as what the Porter's Five Forces would tell you, but it's breathed life into it with a human being in mind. Like it's almost like just like this added step or an added nugget that makes it like handleable.

Jeremy Korst

Yeah, I think they're all part of the same bigger strategic toolkit. So they're complementary. So it's I most definitely still use Porter's Five Forces and various positioning and, you know, figured out of activity systems and it every single time I come at a strategic problem, those frameworks are still, you know, at the ready in my mind.

But what I have learned through you and others, I've been fortunate, you know, brand mavens that I've been fortunate to work with and learn from is just in communicating those strategies and like understandable, actionable, digestible, practical nature. Brand as a strategy and a position, all those things just help to do that.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, it brings it down from the cerebral to the to do list.

Jeremy Korst

And by the way, I think that we we are all consumers, of course. And so I think it's perhaps easier for us to think about the way that we engage with brands and the way that we interact throughout the world with them. So, you know, maybe it makes it easier for us to just dimensionalize because of our own consumer experience versus the PowerPoint slide with the two by two and these other things, which is important, but not sufficient.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, it's like, yeah, we all at least so far and we'll get to AI in a second. But we all are humans as we make purchase decisions and decisions about what we're going to be loyal to. And so it's easier to tap into that part of ourself maybe than to take a really cerebral concept and make it part of like the day to day lens for making decisions.

It's like a shorthand almost.

Jeremy Korst

It's like such an important shorthand. And by the way, like that need, that shorthand about getting it succinct and pointed and meaningful is so important versus the six page memo or the 20 page deck, which, again, is important. But being able to actually distill it into that pointed quip is to me.

It's fascinating for those who are really good at doing it. And once done, the scene is such a powerful force in moving organizations to be successful.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh, I love that. Well, so listeners, Jeremy was an early reader for my book about brand strategy. I would love to hear you talk about the ramifications of Gen AI on brand strategy, on brand and just the way that businesses lead and manage their brands.

Jeremy Korst

I think there's at least two things that come to mind. One is a lot of work that I am doing now with organizations and in the classroom is about trying to help organizations successfully adopt AI and understanding that AI is not a strategy. It is a tool to achieve your strategy.

So from a brand perspective, understanding where your brand is positioned and how you should differentially use AI or any advanced technology should be different based on your position, what you're trying to achieve, the customers you're trying to. And that is a really fascinating conversation with executives, with board members and in business school classrooms, when people start to understand that and thinking about how a company like Walmart is differentially deploying AI versus Amazon versus Costco versus Target. When we start disaggregating what their strategy, what their positioning in the market is and how they would deploy that.

So that from the work I'm doing and in the classroom and stuff is a ton of it is how do we take, make sure we really understand our strategy, our brand, our position, then say, how are we going to apply and authentically adopt this? And hopefully it is different than other companies, because if we're all doing it the same, then I'm not sure what the competitive difference is. Now, by the way, I'm not talking about just the productivity gains.

Of course, everybody is going to adopt and it's going to get more efficient and all of that. So there's that aspect of what's called the inside out. The other thing that I have seen is that the cost, this is now on the outbound side, though, on the outbound marketing side, is that the cost of content creation and dissemination is approaching zero or is zero.

And so the amount of what some people call AI slop or just dissonance in the marketplace is just increasing at a geometric rate. And I think for companies and organizations that don't have a clear brand position, know who they're trying to serve, this has always been a problem. I mean, you and I have talked about this a lot, about how brands often and organizations confuse their intended customers because they aren't succinct and pointed and differentiated.

Well, now that I can do this at a cost of near zero, I see brands becoming prolific in this. And so the amount of potential confusion and loss that may happen if organizations don't truly understand their brand and their strategy is a real, real problem, I think, today, too.

Lindsay Pedersen

Wow. It's kind of like the slop thing. There's zero cost to creating and distributing slop.

There's also a corresponding increase in value to something that's not slop because people are so inundated by mostly slop. But it's kind of like that was always there. One could always write poor messaging and distribute it in an imprecise way.

But now it's almost like you don't have, at least before there were money and spending sort of became a limitation on that sin. And now there's not that limitation on that sin.

Jeremy Korst

Exactly. It's throttled by resources before. So we could only do so much bad.

Now all the reins have been taken off. And by the way, it always has been an issue. I mean, it's frustrated me, even in the organizations that I've led, about when you start seeing this entropy that happens as more agencies and more channels and more partners get involved and we get further and further away from our intended strategy.

But it's so much easier now. And AI, each of the portions of the MarTech and SalesTech stack is adopting its own AI. And so you have this, I think, proliferation of very locally optimal solutions.

So, yes, my social channel AI is going to optimize for whatever objective I give it in that channel, whereas my email SDR is going to seemingly optimize for that. Now when I step back and look at the discordant, various touch points I've had throughout the journey, it's like, oh my goodness, what does that look like?

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, there's not just slop writ large, there's slop of different channels. It's not even like there's just social media slop, there's slop from every direction. And what brands can do is, first of all, filter out things that aren't going to be singularly specific in value creating for the company and the customer.

So filter it out. And second, identify and pinpoint and maybe even expound upon the good stuff that's really resonating. It's sort of like pruning a garden.

When you get rid of the bad stuff, that beautiful stuff actually now has more oxygen and sunlight.

Jeremy Korst

Yeah, so I think a combination, I think you hit on it earlier, is I think the brands and leaders and organizations that do this well, meaningfully, consistently, et cetera, have the opportunity to stand out. Yes, there it is. I think that's the opportunity.

By the way, I think the technology also presents an opportunity you were also touching on. In the broader AI world, we call this context engineering, but how can we capture what is the brand and marketing and sales, the go-to-market operating system, kind of in context, such that AI might actually be able to help us be able to create more consistent content, provide feedback before it goes to market? That's got to be intentional.

There's people, Michael Atala at UiPath, who's became a CMO there, former colleague from Microsoft and a good friend. He and I were having a conversation a couple weeks ago, and he's doing this with his team. I was really excited to hear him talk about how they're looking to AI to do what we're talking about, is to be an enabling factor for them to get better at delivering consistent, meaningful on-brand messaging.

I think that the leaders that are able to, that not only marketing, but in support and sales and other parts of the organization, it could be a really big enabling factor, but it could go really sideways if left to its own devices and just let go.

Lindsay Pedersen

Without that singular North Star that governs it and orchestrates it. It's interesting because circling back to something that you said before, is that you and I have talked about this, and I've heard you in other contexts talk about how companies shouldn't have an AI strategy, they should have a strategy strategy, and that AI should support and accelerate that strategy. It reminds me, in 1999, I was in business school and I took a class called Internet Strategy.

Isn't that? The mass-adopted internet was only a few years old, and everybody thought they needed an internet strategy. And then a few years later, in the early aughts, a lot of people were talking about, what's our social media strategy?

And now it seems kind of dumb, like you have a strategy and then all of your tools, their job is to implement and accelerate your strategy. You don't have an internet strategy or a social media strategy or an email strategy or an AI strategy. Do you have a strategy to strategy?

So the reframe of kind of stepping back and getting crystal clarity on what's the upstream, in my language, brand promise, others could call it the value proposition or the source of differentiation, but like stepping back and like, what are we, Walmart or Costco or Target or Amazon, what is the specific thing where we win? That's our strategy. And then using all of these things, including Gen AI, including old school tools as well.

What is it about that clarity that unlocks value for companies so much? I guess what's on my mind is like, when there's something that's really new and like zeitgeisty, like the internet was in 1999, I think that there's kind of a rush to like, what's our stand on this? Like, what are we going to do?

What's going to be our internet strategy? But in some ways, isn't it like, all old things are new again, it's all the same. Like there actually isn't anything new upstream, at least as long as human beings are the ones who are consuming what we're selling.

Jeremy Korst

I mean, there's a lot of commonality, a lot of similar things like you've talked about, whether it was internet, mobile, personal computing, social. In this current transformation that we're undergoing, the sheer amount of capital, an amount of spend that is going into it is inordinate. Over a trillion dollars infrastructure, US businesses are spending $200 billion a year adopting AI technologies this year.

If we look at Stanford, McKinsey, BCG, only about 5% of organizations have so far adopted at scale. One of my side jobs is I'm co-author of the Wharton School's Annual AI Adoption Study now in its third year. And we've seen similar things within our study.

And we also see, particularly in our study, is that how perhaps executive managers and middle managers aren't even on the same page. There's been other studies showing about how enthusiastic and maybe rose-colored glasses CEOs and senior executives are up the promise of AI and about how much worry there may be and even resistance at lower levels in the organization. What our study has uncovered is even within leadership ranks, leaders aren't on the same page.

And of course, there's all kinds of factors going on in this about the potential implications for job dislocation and role impact and the technology itself about its current state and limitations. But when I step back, a huge part of this is exactly what we're talking about. Is this, well, what is our strategy?

What are we trying to achieve? So I can dimensionalize how I can put this to use. If I don't know, and if I can't answer that question, then I'm just trying to seed a thousand flowers and see what grows.

So perhaps it's not surprising if an organization isn't taking an intentional approach, trying to say, based on my differential position, strategy, and meaning in the market, here's how I think we're gonna apply this. I'm gonna intentionally just focus there. Instead, if I get distracted or try a bunch of things, maybe it's not surprising that an overwhelming disproportionate amount of pilots fail.

And so that's where I come at it, both through the research and the classroom work that I do and then in the consulting I'm doing now with organizations about, let's just be really clear so the whole organization can think about in their day-to-day work, how should we authentically try to apply this to, of course, it's not only this technology, but this is the big hot topic, it's AI. But you can imagine how we use the same type of decision criteria and approach on all the other things that are going on throughout the organization and overworked middle managers and workers throughout the organization so they can make choices about how to do their jobs and use the tools that are meaningful to achieve their actual strategy.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, it's like when you put it that way, it's so empowering because it separates the wheat from the shaft, which is so much more satisfying.

Jeremy Korst

You'd make me think, I talk to a lot of organizations like this, at Microsoft, Windows is a $22 billion business. We had a $3.2 billion marketing budget of which 1.2 billion was operating and had a very large team. And I don't remember a single day where my team came in and said, wow, we had too much money and too many people to get everything done we want to get done.

Every single day was a prioritization conversation about how we were going to do something other than something else, about how we weren't going to be able to do something that was, by the way, was probably an amazing idea and maybe even positive ROI. And so being able to have a lens, even in a massive, huge organization with tons of resources like that, that's why when I talk, particularly even at the lower end, the smaller end of the spectrum of some of my founders, early stage companies, it's like, trust me, if I couldn't do everything I wanted to do with that size of a budget and resources, there's no way we're going to be able to do that here.

So now what's our lens? And our lens is brand, I think. It's a brand strategy.

How are we going to make sure we get done what we have to do and not get distracted by these other things?

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. It's amazing to think of a $22 billion business and the amount of resources that you have, and you still have to prioritize. You're not let off the hook when you have more heft.

In some ways, having scarce resources forces prioritization. Everything is scarce resources, though. Even in the context that you described, that's scarce resources too because the competitive environment demands spending and Wall Street once gains this quarter.

So you co-wrote an iconic article in Harvard Business Review about how AI tools are transforming market research. Talk about how, as a former executive and as a consumer of market research, you feel about AI tools in this realm of research.

Jeremy Korst

Well, I think I'm excited about the opportunity but also wanting to help all of us make sure that we use these in wise ways. So as you know, I've been a huge consumer of market research back. My analytically-minded marketer and leader always loved to have data from the outside.

So big consumer of market research. More recently, the last eight years, I've been a partner at GBK Collective, which is a market research and insights company that works with some of the largest brands in the world on those aspects. So then I've been on the research side with part of my life.

And so now with the advent of AI, market research has been one of the most early adopters of this because, not surprisingly, all of us have been involved in it. It's like, wow, the amount of time, the amount of money and effort is frustrating when we want to go get the research conducted because it takes longer than any of us would like. But then also there are many decisions in the organization for which you'd love to have information but just never able to get that information from the outside because it's just too costly.

It takes too much time. And so AI, we think, helps change that game. Even in traditional resources, I know places like GDK and some of our competitors in the market, being able to take out some of the costly basic analysis and project management, process management is great.

It helps accelerate and reduce that cost. But we're finding ways where AI is actually even perhaps providing new insights that weren't available to traditional. In fact, we just were submitting an HB article this week around qualitative market research, though, into the news.

And very surprisingly, as we've talked to some of the companies who are in the forefront of this, where several companies actually have raised between $50 and $100 million just in the last six months in this space, ListenLabs, Outset, Conveo, a white culminator graduate, so Simile. So there's a bunch of things happening in the space. They'll be in the article, of course, when it publishes.

But beyond just making this faster and cheaper and greater scale, we're learning things like, for example, on sensitive topics, humans seem to be more willing to be open and truthful, seemingly, when being interviewed, in quotes, by an AI moderator, when they know it's an AI, versus another human. So all of a sudden, we've gotten brands who have deeper and maybe more truthful insights from that. Conveo, one of the examples we have in the article, is able, through video interviews, is be able to get much more context about the setting in somebody's own home, their actual emotional reactions, et cetera, but doing it on a systematic basis beyond what even a human moderator could see.

And so in all these cases, a long-winded way of saying, we don't see traditional research going away. In fact, traditional research has its place most definitely, but what we hope to see is that because this technology can advance and maybe extend some of the insights we're able to get. And then in the future, there's all kinds of things like digital twins and synthetic personas that some of my colleagues are working on, which are kind of the next level, and we will see how those turn out in coming years.

But maybe someday, Lindsay, you and I will have our own digital twin that can answer those annoying surveys for us on our behalf.

Lindsay Pedersen

Okay, okay. Well, first of all, qualitative research, it makes so much sense to me that depends on the category to some extent, but there are a lot of categories where it's really hard to make a person feel safe talking about the context where they have a given problem. And even if it's not like a sensitive, context-y thing, qualitative is also marred by just the bias of the participant wanting to impress the person who's interviewing them, or heaven forbid, if it's focus group and there's posturing in the room, that makes so much sense to me.

I'm glad that you and your colleagues see it as complimentary and not merely a replacement for a different reason, which is there's something that happens to my brain when I am watching a consumer use or talk about my product that just can't happen. There's nothing that replaces it. There's nothing that replaces, and I'm not sure what it is neurologically that's happening, but there's like a mirror neuron or some empathy building that happens by watching my consumer try to talk about the problem that I intend to solve for them. There's just nothing like that, but that's kind of funny because that's not usually why we would do market research. We do market research to ask various questions.

That's sort of like a side bonus. So I'm really interested in how the salad of this kind of comes forth where we're adding to traditional methods and also a lot of traditional research. We do research when we shouldn't do research.

It depends on the company. We want to hide a little bit. There's a lot of that that probably should go, but I will always be psyched to participate in an ethnography or to watch or be part of an ethnography or interviews because there's just something so potent about hearing and even seeing the expressions on the person's face from behind the mirror.

Jeremy Korst

I think that's entirely correct. I think that having that interface and the number of times I've been up late at night watching through the two-way mirror literally or figuratively on a focus group to see that reaction. Or I remember back in the T-Mobile days where directors and above were supposed to listen to an hour a month on the customer support line.

So we got to dial in and listen to customer support, which is another great way to understand how your consumers are being impacted.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, that's such a great empathy builder.

Jeremy Korst

And so I think that maybe through these other platforms, maybe it becomes even easier for managers and leaders to be able to access this content, if not real time, at least offline. The other thing I think that is kind of exciting about this, particularly in AI qualitative and interview spaces, we've always had this trade-off about the depth and richness that we get through qualitative in real human language and emotion. But because of the cost to scale that, both in time and dollars, it's almost always been not statistically significant.

We've had this trade-off between qual and quant. Well, not so much any longer. So there's already work going on because of the scale that AI moderation can provide and doing it on a systematic, structured basis, where you can get both.

You actually get the qualitative interviews, but in a structure where you can extract, perhaps, actually statistically quantifiable insights from the study, and so you get both. And so we're really early stage at that, but you can already see the promise of it in the coming, this isn't coming years, this is coming months, where it becomes more and more real.

Lindsay Pedersen

That makes me so hungry for it. The idea of not having to couch an insight with, we only interviewed 35 people and we can only give 70% confidence. To not have to make that trade-off is so powerful, and to be able to do it so quickly, because the other trade-off is just waiting.

Jeremy Korst

Oh, yeah. Trying to schedule them. Another example that one of the companies had was really hard to reach audiences.

You can imagine doctors is a great one. Trying to do qualitative interviews with doctors. GBK had such a project several years ago, and I remember how impossible that was.

They don't have a set schedule, really. And so being able to have a programmed AI-moderated interview that the doctor or nurse can do at their, I wouldn't say leisure, at least folks don't have a lot of leisure, but let them do it when they have time, hugely successful compared to traditional methods. So yeah, all kinds of ways that AI can help leaders get more of that interface and feedback from their consumers and from the market, so we can enhance, improve both our strategy and our execution.

Lindsay Pedersen

Love this. Okay. Well, you and I could easily talk for another hour about this, and we will another time.

But for now, as we wrap up, I have some rapid fire questions for you. Are you ready?

Let's see. What is always in your refrigerator?

Jeremy Korst

What is always in my refrigerator? Heavy cream. I love heavy cream in my coffee.

Lindsay Pedersen

Wow. Ditto. I have to circle back to you about that at some other point.

Okay. What is something that you do that you know is inefficient, but you refuse to change it?

Jeremy Korst

Typing. I have tried to do some of the new whisper and other types of voice, whether it's texting or that, and for whatever reason, I have noticed that my mind is somehow mechanically attached to my fingers in the way I think. So regardless of the evidence of verbal communication being anywhere from seven to 20 times faster than tight, I'm having a real struggle transitioning.

Lindsay Pedersen

Okay. I like that. I was picturing you with an old-fashioned typewriter with ink and stuff.

Okay. Inefficient, but you refuse to change. Okay.

What is something that you're a total snob about?

Jeremy Korst

My fishing gear. Don't bring your own fishing gear onto my boat.

Anybody who knows me fishing knows that.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love that. Okay. What is a small habit that has had an outsized impact on your life?

Jeremy Korst

I'm not sure if it's a small habit, but what comes to mind is hiking. It's not a small habit because it takes a significant amount of time, but the mental clarity, the stress reduction, of course, the physical benefit of being out in our beautiful woods that we're lucky enough to live around here is great. And by the way, when I'm hiking, I'm not even...

When my wife, she just loves being out there, nothing in her ears. I'm listening to a podcast or I'm doing something, but just being out in there and being able to absorb that setting and whatever information I'm thinking about, podcast or otherwise, or ebook, is just really, really rewarding.

Lindsay Pedersen

Life-changing. Okay. Last question.

What is your favorite salty snack?

Jeremy Korst

My favorite salty snack. I am a low-carb-efficient auto because I have to be for me to stay at least in shape, but I love potato chips.

Lindsay Pedersen

Certain brand or flavor?

Jeremy Korst

Yes, all.

My friends would tell you, my friends would probably tell you my favorite is Doritos. If somebody opens up good old standard Doritos, watch out.

Lindsay Pedersen

I know. They're so addicting and evil and delicious. Well, this has been so much fun.

Where can I send listeners who want to learn more about you or stuff you're working on right now?

Jeremy Korst

Yeah. Best place to connect with me is on LinkedIn, just Jeremy Korst, or I think it's Jay Korst, I guess is the shorthand there, but love to connect with folks there, share ideas back and forth on ideas around strategy, around AI, et cetera, so love to connect there.

Lindsay Pedersen

Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to this episode of North Star Leaders.

Make sure you don't miss an episode by subscribing on your favorite podcast app. If you know of a North Star Leader whose insights would be valuable for this community, please message me on ironcladbrandstrategy.com. Also on that website are show notes, transcripts, and a way to sign up for our monthly newsletter.

I hope you join us again for another episode of North Star Leaders.