North Star Leaders Podcast

Lindsay Pedersen

The world needs what only your business can bring, and as a leader, it's your job to deliver. But where do you focus? Where do you direct your time, your team, your budget, and your emotional energy?

We're learning this together on the North Star Leaders Podcast. In this podcast, I talk to purpose-driven leaders about the choices that they make to create audacious economic value while also realizing their distinctive purpose. I'm Lindsay Peterson, brand strategist, author of Forging an Ironclad Brand, and host of the North Star Leaders Podcast.

Let's get to it. Today, I am really happy to be joined by Latane Conant, who is CRO of 6Sense and past CMO at Appirio. Latané, welcome to the show.

Latané Conant

Hi, Lindsay. Thanks for having me. Glad we got connected.

Lindsay Pedersen

Me too. To start us off, Latané, what is the most energizing part of your job that others wouldn't guess from the outside?

Latané Conant

So I have our BDR team, which is like our outbound sales team, and I love like sitting with them in the office and helping them book meetings, and when they get a meeting, we ring the gong and we get all excited. So that is really energizing. We also do, in our marketing channel, we always do shout outs on Friday.

And so I love just seeing everyone shouting each other out and the cool work they're doing. And then probably something people don't know about 6Sense is we take our events very seriously, and we take our themes and our parties very seriously. And so every party has a look book, which explains the theme and also gives people ideas for what they should wear.

And so pretty much every party means a new outfit, which is kind of awesome.

Lindsay Pedersen

Now, is this something that you have injected from your own personal love of costumes, or has this just arisen from the team? What of Latin-y is in that?

Latané Conant

I have fear of not having a super cute outfit. So, you know, the team always did these themes, which it's not like dress and costume. It's more just like, you know, we're going to be outside and have a band and like these are the kind of vibes.

And so I'm like, well, what is that? I want to make sure I'm like with the vibe. So then we started book books so that everybody at the company knows, like, it's going to be a 70s type vibe with a 70s band.

So feel free to, you know, be a little disco. Yeah, I love that.

Lindsay Pedersen

And I love the theme. All of those energizing things have a really affiliative, social, generous element to them celebrating other people.

Latané Conant

Yeah. And just, I don't know. I think that like anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

So.

Lindsay Pedersen

Mic drop. I love that. Okay.

It's going to be hard to beat that. So you're now the CRO, but you spent a lot of time as chief market officer at 6Sense. And I know you have a lot of heart for using the word market in that title rather than marketing.

Talk about what that means, chief market officer.

Latané Conant

So I think this is a really important concept for CMOs because if you think about Ing, Ing implies activities. I wrote a blog. I ran a campaign.

I hosted an event. I sent out some emails. I updated our website.

And nobody really cares at the executive level about those things. And if they do, you're probably in the wrong place. So really the chief market officer is most concerned with understanding and shaping the right market.

And so when you show up as a market officer, then yes, you did blogs and campaigns and et cetera. But the purpose was we knew that EMEA was a key market for us to win. And so we organized it this way.

We knew the theme needed to be a little different because they buy a little bit differently. So we adjusted that. And then, you know, we ran this program against that to activate and that these were the results.

So it's a constant reminder that like the activities are purposeful and they're really designed to shape and own a market.

Lindsay Pedersen

Did you have an epiphany that led you to that realization that this is really a chief market officer role, not a chief marketing officer role? Like how did that emerge?

Latané Conant

It is not my original content. So there's a woman named Christine Heckard who was actually one of the first CMOs ever. She was the CMO of Cisco and then Brocade and then went on to actually be a CEO.

And she was on our board and is really involved in our empowered CMO network. And she's the one who really said, you know, you guys are not showing up the right way. And that's why you're frustrated.

You're frustrated that people are editing your PowerPoints and don't like your blogs, but you're kind of doing it to yourself. And you need to be 90 percent market and 10 percent 'ing". And so that's been kind of a rallying cry for many of us to up our game.

Like I think it's a rallying cry to up your game and make sure that you are living up to that title.

Lindsay Pedersen

It seems like there's a standing in your power too, right? Like because if you're the "ing" part, the tasks are super important so long as they stem from the strategic direction that you have set and that you own. And so when you're only in the tasking, there's sort of a giving up of power to whoever is above you.

Whereas if you're the chief market officer, it is yours. It is yours to decide.

Latané Conant

Yeah. And the strategic importance of that is much larger than marketing, right? Like and the reality is, if you don't have a good market, it doesn't matter how great your product is.

You can't grow beyond a certain point. And I think that investors and CEOs understand that product market fit is critical and the size of the market is critical. That's a big factor in your growth.

And, you know, it's interesting. I heard one of the Lightspeed investors on a podcast, and he talked about how they think about investing. And he said, I only invest in companies that have execution risk because every company has execution risk.

But I don't like taking on market risk. And what he went on to say is if it's a huge proven market, then I don't believe there's market risk. Now, there's always execution risk.

Like, do you deliver the product? Does the team come together? Do you do your "ing" as a marketer?

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I'm always like trying to de-risk by making sure that I've already field tested and I know there's a market. And so I think that's really important and an important concept.

And so as the CMO, the market part of the CMO's job is to be thinking about what is our overall TAM? But then within that TAM, where can we really sell? Where do we have a right to win?

Where can we make customers successful? Where can we design territories? Ultimately, every growth plan comes back to like how many AEs can I hire and give a good territory to?

And so being able to understand and think ahead of that is really important.

Lindsay Pedersen

It strikes me as you're describing this, that chief market officer and CEO actually have a very high overlap. Like, I mean, all of the things that you just described for TAM and the right market and the product market fit. Actually, you said this, it's beyond marketing.

It also is very much the domain of whoever the buck stops at, the general manager, the CEO, in this case. Is there overlap between the CEO and the CMO in a situation like that?

Latané Conant

No, because here's the thing. My job is to know the market better than anyone else and share that knowledge. I can give a recommendation, but ultimately the CEO's got to decide, yeah, I agree.

This is what we need to do in EMEA. Or I agree. We need to expand our product offerings because we are running out of TAM.

Or you know what? I don't think we're ready for that yet. I think I want to see us penetrate here more, right?

You don't necessarily make the call, but you have to provide the information so that the CEO or board or executive team can make the call.

Lindsay Pedersen

Right. What is it about product market fit that is so pivotal? Even if you're the CRO or the CMO, you're not head of product, but the product market fit is fundamental.

Why is that?

Latané Conant

Because you can't in your way to winning. And so product market fit is a couple of things. It's one, what I just talked about.

Is there even market for this thing that we're starting? Like, is there a problem that is big enough that people are willing to actually invest in this? And there's a lot of companies that compete against spreadsheets.

That's hard. Spreadsheets are pretty good. So the problem's got to be pretty compounded as an example.

So that's kind of step one. Like, is it a problem big enough that people are going to spend money to solve it? And then step two is, typically, if it's a problem that is big enough and people are willing to solve, it's very competitive space.

So that's when it comes to, okay, what are we reshaping? How are we reshaping what great looks like to be able to be a leader in this category? And so like a lot of companies are like, oh, I want to create a category.

I want to create a category. And sometimes maybe that's good, perhaps, but I look at like Workday and Salesforce. They didn't actually create a category.

They took CRM. Siebel was the leader in CRM. And they basically said it sucked and ERP and on-prem was bad and then cloud was good and made cloud a key decision criteria.

And they are CRM in the cloud. Same with Workday. Workday was, they were all PeopleSoft and PeopleSoft was on-prem software.

Cloud came about and they said, you know what? We're going to change this game. We know the exists.

We know there's people there. We're not creating a category per se. We're evolving one.

I think that's a ideal play and a smarter play because like if you've ever like tried to swim against the current, you can. It's hard, you know, or run against the wind. Done a lot of five-mile runs against the wind.

It's not that you can't, it's just harder to have it at your back. And so that's kind of the difference, but there's pros and cons. Again, the con is typically if there's a big market, it's going to be highly competitive.

Lindsay Pedersen

It strikes me as you're describing that, that some of this is in the way that we frame it or, you know, in the case of Salesforce. I mean, I think a lot of people would say that's a category creation story, but if you think of it as no, we're taking the old on-prem way of doing it from Siebel and we're making it in the cloud. That's not a category creation.

That's an evolution.

Latané Conant

Now they evolved. Let's give credit where credit's due. They went way beyond CRM in the cloud, right?

Multiple clouds, you know, they created force.com, which so they evolved it to the max. And maybe that evolution was so big that I'm now I'm arguing against myself, but you could say, you know what? They evolved it in such a huge way that it was its own.

Probably we could go back and forth on that.

Lindsay Pedersen

Over 20 years, but in the first few years there's existing demand in a category or even with company Siebel and we parlay that demand into a new way of doing it. And so it's interesting how the way that you think of like category creation is often like this kind of sexy phrase used, but sometimes even when we talk about category creation stories, it's an evolution or it's a parlaying of something. The behavior was already there.

We weren't going from zero to that. We were going from something that wasn't working, but the demand is already there to that.

Latané Conant

Yeah. I look at like Gainsight. I think Nick Mehta is genius.

And I think that what he did was genius. And I do think that was creating a category, but it's hard because it's a much smaller universe of people that need that software.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. So first at 6Sense, this is a very economically value creating company. It's also a company that has a deep heartfelt purpose.

I'd love for you to talk about how those two things connect with each other or reinforce one another from your standpoint. Like how do you run revenue for a business that's trying to do both of those two things, create something of real meaning to people and businesses, and also create a sheer economically audacious valuation?

Latané Conant

I guess I think they are very interlocked, right? Like if I am delivering a ton of value to my customers and to my audience, then the valuation is a byproduct of that and a direct byproduct of that. And so I've always said, I don't want to work at a company that's a job.

I don't want a job. Jobs suck. I want a cause.

And so what is the cause? And if I feel like the cause is true and meaningful and going to have a meaningful impact on customers and people, I'll probably make a lot of money along the way. So it's more like that, you know, and I am fortunate at 6th is that my cause like aligns a little bit to myself because I'm helping myself.

Like every time we release a feature, it helps me because I use the product every day, you know, and it's such a big part of like how we market. So that makes it a little bit more exciting and fun is just to be so like close. Right.

Lindsay Pedersen

And concrete, like it's not an abstract. You don't have to empathize with anybody because you are the person that is being served.

Latané Conant

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, and I mean, it's a tough gig, right? Like market, we have to justify that we deserve oxygen every day.

And so I think that's hard. Right. And so if our platform can make every investment a marketer makes more significant, go farther, reach the right people, have a bigger impact.

You know, if our workflow product can make it easier to launch the cool campaigns people want to launch and do them more contextual. So, again, they reach that market that they want to achieve. That's kind of freaking awesome.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, it's so rewarding.

Latané Conant

Help them align their sales and make sure that sales is on the same page. Like these are all things that I feel passionate about.

Lindsay Pedersen

So why does a job suck? I'm really interested in this. Like there's a cause, there's a purpose, there's something bigger. What's the difference between being in a role where you have that like you just described and being in a role where you have a job?

Latané Conant

Yeah, so what my old CEO used to talk about the fun factor, and he believed that eight out of ten working days should be fun. And fun isn't, you know, happy. I mean, yeah, that can be.

But, you know, when I think the way that he would define fun and I would define fun is inspired, learning, working on interesting things, being able to accomplish stuff. You know, for me, everyone has a different definition of that. Not fun is status reports and updates upon updates and meetings to talk about the meeting.

And this is just me like that is very draining.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. So if you're in a tell me if this is right, if it's about a cause and you're having fun like 80 percent of the time, if it's a job, it's a lot less than 80 percent of the time.

Latané Conant

Yeah. And I think you also maybe don't care what you're selling or what. Like for me, I've always really been almost like a method actor.

Like I'm so into what I'm selling that it's like how does every like it's like spreading the gospel or something.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh, my gosh, I love that. Have you done things where you it wasn't something that you deeply cared about and it was hard to stay energized about it? Yeah.

So, you know, you know that you have the power of contrast.

What are you like as a leader? Like how would your team describe what it's like to work for you?

Latané Conant

They would say it's a lot of fun, but it's intense. I have a lot of ideas, but I also know like they know when it's just an idea and they can be like, yeah, no, we're not doing that. Or so I feel like I I will ultimately make a call.

I'll, you know, take input or whatever. But then at some point, you know, let's go high energy. You know, I take the work very seriously, but not myself.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love that. Say more about that. How does that come to life?

Latané Conant

I mean, we do these end of quarter war rooms and I have little theme songs for the final war room. And I'm like, like the last one was every day I'm hustling. Literally, you know, the last week of the quarter, I'm like, every day we're hustling.

Yeah, he's insane. But I don't get embarrassed very easily. I think so.

That probably makes other people more comfortable to be embarrassed.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, I love that. I love that. What are some things that you've learned about building teams that you wish you knew earlier in your career?

Things that like hard won lessons about building great teams that work together well?

Latané Conant

You know, I think that there's like a trust factor, right? They've got to trust each other and get along well and like know their role and piece in the pie. I think that's really important.

I think that allowing them to say no and tell you you're wrong is important. And so I try to really keep the people that do that close and that do it in, you know, the right way, right, in a respectful way. But I also think like the people that tell me that everything's going great all the time make me very suspicious.

So that's just something I've learned all the time. I mean, if you're in a very high growth environment, something is always probably not going right. And so I either question, are they not maybe smart enough to know that everything's not going well?

Is it an IQ thing or that they just don't want to tell me the truth? So those are both issues for me.

Lindsay Pedersen

What's something like a principle that you hold dear about leading or about being a CRO that others disagree with, but you like you stick by it, your contrarian stick in the ground?

Latané Conant

I think there's this narrative, especially with female leaders, that like be vulnerable. It's good to be vulnerable, like open yourself up. And I just think that like no fucking way, do not be.

Lindsay Pedersen

No fucking way. Don't be vulnerable with me. Don't be.

Latané Conant

You'll get splashed like a bug. You can be relatable. Absolutely be.

But I would not show up vulnerable ever.

Lindsay Pedersen

Say more about that, because a lot of the things that you've shared, like the music that you play in the quarterly meetings, sound vulnerable. What's the difference between the overly exposed part that you're sharing and being relatable and fun? What's the threshold?

Latané Conant

Vulnerability to me is like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm scared. I've got all these problems that I've dealt with problems that are showing up and bringing me down and save that for your therapist.

This is show business, not show friends. Yeah. That doesn't mean we can't build trust and be relatable.

And you couldn't come to me and say, look, I mean, this has happened to me. My mom had an accident. I will not be attending this or reachable.

I got to go do that. And it's a challenging time for me. So.

Right. And here's how I plan to work through that.

Lindsay Pedersen

Right. There's a real grown up kind of maturity to that, that you wouldn't find with sheer, you know, this horrible thing has happened to me. There is something horrible that's happened.

Latané Conant

If people asked about it, I was like, yeah, you know, it's been this, but this is what's happening. And I don't know. Another example is I just dropped my oldest off at college, which is a, it's a thing, right?

And everyone knows it's a thing. There's different levels to that. And we had our QBRs then.

And there's an expectation to be in person and there for three days. And I basically just said, no, I'm dropping my kid off at college. This is a big priority for me.

For my part, first day, I'll call in the others I want. And they're like, what time is the, you know, and they kept trying to, I'm like, I don't really know, but I know that I'm going to want to spend a lot of time with my kid and I'll come back to work ready to roll. But this is what's happening.

Lindsay Pedersen

There's a humanness that seems so alive in what you just said. And also in your other examples of, you know, not easily embarrassed and fun is important. And that's something you hold very dear.

And that doesn't mean sappy. That doesn't mean not being a grownup at work. Both of those things can be present, can be true.

And if they are true, that's when you're at your best. That's when the team is at its best. I love that.

I love that. And thank you for sharing that. Okay.

I had one more question I wanted to ask you. What do you do to fill your tank? Like, what's the thing that you really, especially on exhausting days as a leader, that you need to replenish your spirit and your physical energy and your mental energy?

Latané Conant

It's changed over time, which is interesting. It used to be running. Now it's like projects.

And then it was shopping, like again, back to the outfits. And now it's really like design and like projects at home or gardening or like I get a lot of mojo out of thinking about, oh, I'm going to do this flower bed and I need some more hydrangeas over there.

I love to like create beauty and then watch it unfold. And it's like an obsession.

And I'm waking up in the middle of the night thinking about wallpaper and stuff. I mean, it's silly, but I don't know. That's what I like to do.

Lindsay Pedersen

I love it. You and I are kindred spirits. I wake up in the middle of the night with thoughts like that, too.

There's a consistent thread here around something that really lights you up is about whether it's a cute outfit or the perfectly placed hydrangea. It's beauty and the kind of the joy that comes from that.

Latané Conant

I appreciate beauty. And I love bringing people together and they don't need to know it's the hydrangea that's well-placed or the signature cocktail or the theme. But they're just like, wow, this feels awesome.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, I love that. Wow. Thank you.

That was wonderful. Okay. I have some rapid fire questions to finish this off.

One word-ish answers. Are you ready?

Latané Conant

Yeah. Okay. I'm ready.

Lindsay Pedersen

A song that pumps you up?

Latané Conant

Too legit. Too legit to quit. With

Lindsay Pedersen

With the finger.

Latané Conant

Yes. With the fingers.

Lindsay Pedersen

A teenager during the early 90s, I can tell. Yeah. Okay.

A place that you've always wanted to travel.

Latané Conant

Lawrence.

Lindsay Pedersen

What is your preferred morning beverage?

Latané Conant

Coffee with half and half.

Lindsay Pedersen

A lot of half and half or just a dab?

Latané Conant

Medium, but, you know, pretty, pretty light.

Lindsay Pedersen

Substantial, but not. Okay. Okay, good.

What is your favorite sport to participate in or watch?

Latané Conant

I like wake surfing. And that's really fun to do with my family.

Lindsay Pedersen

What is your favorite life hack?

Latané Conant

Two washers and two dryers.

Lindsay Pedersen

Say more.

Latané Conant

All that laundry done in one day. I don't like constantly the laundry cycling.

I don't like big things of clothes that need to get folded. Like it has to all get done in one day.

Lindsay Pedersen

You've blown my mind.

Latané Conant

It's just so annoying if it's just there.

Lindsay Pedersen

So you have two washing machines and two dryers. Just right next to each other.

Latané Conant

Yes. Laundromat style.

Lindsay Pedersen

You have a laundry mat in your home.

I love this.

Latané Conant

No, I'm blowing your mind right now. You're blowing my mind. I have like follow-up questions galore.

Thank you so much for sharing so generously. How can people in this audience learn more about you online, about 6Sense online?

Latané Conant

Yeah. So, you know, I'm on LinkedIn. Always love to meet new friends on LinkedIn and then, you know, 6Sense.com.

Lindsay Pedersen

Awesome. Perfect. Thank you for joining us.

Latané Conant

Thanks, Lindsay.

Lindsay Pedersen

Thanks for listening to this episode of North Star Leaders. Make sure you don't miss an episode by subscribing on your favorite podcast app. If you know of a North Star Leader whose insights would be valuable for this community, please message me on ironcladbrandstrategy.com.

Also on that website are show notes, transcripts, and a way to sign up for our monthly newsletter. I hope you join us again for another episode of North Star Leaders.