North Star Leaders Podcast

Lindsay Pedersen

The world needs what only your business can bring, and as a leader, it's your job to deliver. If you're wondering where purpose-driven leaders direct their time, team, budget, and energy, you'll find out here on the North Star Leaders Podcast. I'm Lindsay Pedersen, brand strategist, author of Forging an Ironclad Brand, and host of this show.

Remember, purpose isn't what you hang on the wall. It's what you do when the choice is hard.

Megan Dougherty

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the North Star Leaders Podcast. I am a surprise guest host for this bonus episode.

My name is Megan Dougherty. I run One Stone Creative, and I work with the wonderful Lindsay Pedersen on this show. And for a long time, I have been after Lindsay to share a little bit more about her personal ideas, about the industry, about brand, and how she came to do all of this.

And she graciously agreed to let me interview her on her own podcast, which is very fun for me. Lindsay, thank you so much for making this happen.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, thank you for twisting my arm. I have to admit I'm very self-conscious that we're going to be talking about me this time, but I'm here for it.

Megan Dougherty

Well, you create such a great space for your guests, and I thought it would be appropriate for you to have that kind of space to share the insights that you've come up with over the years, because you have many. So, a real easy one to kick off, Lindsay. What is brand?

Lindsay Pedersen

What is brand? Well, the way I define brand is that it is simply the meaning that you own inside the mind of your audience.

So, what are you to the people that you want to mean something to?

Megan Dougherty

Okay, that's really interesting, because that can be taken a lot of different ways by a lot of different people. What's a way that you see that play out to kind of paint a picture for everyone listening?

Lindsay Pedersen

So, the word brand can be used in so many different ways, and it can be, by the way, it can be a noun, like you just asked it. It can be a verb. It can be an adjective.

Brand marketing, you know, I'm going to go brand something. It really does have kind of a frustratingly broad application. The reason I say it's the meaning that you own inside the head of your audience is that all businesses have a brand, and the difference is whether an organization or a set of leaders is being deliberate about that brand that they're building.

Any business, anything that has a customer, has a brand. And what I contend is that by being intentional and active rather than passive in knowing what you want your brand to mean, you're more likely to end up with something that you want than if you allow the market or the customer to define that for you. So, brand is what you mean, and then brand strategy is that deliberate exercise of defining what that meaning will be.

The reason that's so powerful to get to your question is that once you do that with a lot of heart and empathy and rigor, you can use it as your primary decision-making filter as a leader.

Megan Dougherty

That's really interesting, and it feels like a really human way to think about brand, because I think a lot of people, especially a lot of people who aren't deep in the marketing world, they think of brand and they think of marketing and all these aggressive tactics, but you're saying that what it really is is it's something that exists anyway, and you can really intentionally just be clear about who you are and what you're doing.

Lindsay Pedersen

Exactly, and I think in the same way that the word brand can be just used in so many different ways, one of the ways it's often used is almost like a synonym for advertising or promotion, and those can be aggressive, they can be hurtful, or they can be evil, but the point is that that's actually just one way. Most businesses on Earth don't do advertising, but they do have a brand.

Megan Dougherty

Is that true? Most businesses don't do advertising? That feels like a shocking statement.

I'm sure it's true, but I've never thought about it that way before.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, they certainly don't do the kind of advertising that most people think of when they think of advertising. They certainly aren't doing TV advertising. I just came from the dry cleaner down the street from me, and they most definitely do not do TV advertising, and I don't think they have any advertising budget at all.

The baker and the butcher down the street are businesses that have never done any advertising, but they have brands, so brand is universal. Wherever there's a relationship between a business and its customers, there's a brand, and the way that people talk about brand marketing or advertising, that's actually a pretty small subset of businesses out there.

Megan Dougherty

On the topic of different types of branding, what's your opinion on the term personal brand?

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh, I hate it.

Megan Dougherty

Oh, my God. Okay, I'm so glad I hate it, too.

Lindsay Pedersen

I hate it. I hate it. I wrote a blog post or a LinkedIn post about this and kind of ranty for my style, and I'm curious to hear actually why you hate it before I tell you why I hate it.

Why do you hate personal branding?

Megan Dougherty

Okay, now we're getting personal for me, too. For me, the idea of developing and cultivating a personal brand to really try to control how other people perceive me, professionally or otherwise, that just feels to me like a not very human or very human activity.

It makes me feel false, even if what would be my personal brand is authentic to who I am. Just being so intentional about trying to control other people's perceptions just doesn't sit right with me.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, there's just something just phony about it.

Megan Dougherty

Yeah, it just feels off.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yes. I'd say that is my primary reason for disliking it, too. I hope this isn't too pedantic, but I'll say the whole idea of brand, at least in the 20th century of what you were talking about, like TV advertising, the whole idea of taking a product or a service and infusing it with a personality, the whole idea of that was to give human qualities to an inanimate object or service.

Toilet paper that was friendly, like Charmin, allowed that toilet paper, by imbuing it with human-like characteristics, people were more loyal to it and paid more for it. Toilet paper needed to be branded with personality and human characteristics in order to serve commerce, to have high price points, to have loyalty. But we people are already people, so we don't need to be imbued with human characteristics.

We already are humans. So it's almost like an intellectual quibble. It irritates me because we already are that.

The other reason, and maybe this is related to that, is that going back to when I was first defining brand, brand is the meaning you stand for inside your audience as a business. That is a commerce term. That is a term for when somebody is exchanging money or time for a thing, there is a need and a benefit to serving your audience better by standing for a meaning that is going to resonate for them.

That's true in commerce. You have to earn your right to be in commerce by bringing something of value to the person you're going to exchange value for. It's so basic, it's almost silly to say.

A business doesn't have any value other than the meaning that it brings its customer. Almost by definition, you don't deserve to exist as a business if you don't mean anything to a customer. On the other hand, humans are inherently worth something.

We are not in commerce. That's like what it means to be a human being, like you can't pin us down to one thing. Businesses actually ought to be pinned down to stand for one thing because that is actually making it easier for the audience to see them and bond with them.

But why should people have to do that? To my kids, I'm a caregiver. To my friends, I'm kind of silly and earnest.

To the people who work for me, I'm the boss. Why do I need to be one of those things? I don't, I'm a human.

But as a business, you do have to be specific like that. I know that was kind of a soapboxy thing, but yeah. To short answer your question, what do I think of personal branding?

I hate it. I find it a dilution of the very word, what brand even means. It's actually like personal branding doesn't have anything to do with brand.

It's really just like reputation management. And there's validity to reputation management, but let's not call it personal brand. There's my two cents.

Megan Dougherty

Dear listeners, you can't see this, but I'm clapping. As I am listening because that was a really good explanation. And I love what you said about the dilution that happens with the personal brand.

It dilutes who you are as a person and it dilutes what you're trying to do and how you connect with others. I think that's a really, I really love your take on that. So thank you for sharing it.

Thank you for the soapbox.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, let me, so sorry, because I want to make sure. We as people, if we want to be diluted, we can be diluted. Like if that's where we want to be, we can be diluted.

But what I tell businesses is you can't be diluted. You actually have to be really specific and crystalline clarity of what you mean. Because otherwise it's really hard for people to learn about you and bond with you.

It's like being complex as a business, at least to your audience, thwarts your ability to grow. But for humans, it's sort of the opposite.

Megan Dougherty

Well, so I would like to now go back a little bit through the sands of time. And I'm really curious about how you developed in your work and in this industry. And my first question about that is, do you remember the very first brand that you became aware of?

What was the first brand you think you knew?

Lindsay Pedersen

Megan, I don't think I've ever been asked this before. That is so fun. Okay.

It is probably Red Vines. So Megan is Canadian. I live on the West Coast.

I grew up in Seattle. I live on the West Coast. Red Vines is a type of candy that you could buy it for two cents per piece.

And I loved it. And I would take my allowance money and I would buy that. When I first was allowed to cross the street.

So it was probably Red Vines. It was 100% a type of candy. And I'm pretty sure Red Vines was the type of candy that first caught my imagination.

Megan Dougherty

When you say it caught your imagination, what does that mean? What do you remember about interacting with Red Vines?

Lindsay Pedersen

I mean, I wrapped a whole story around, okay, I get, I don't know, it was like 50 cents a week. And I was like five. And I remember when I was allowed to start crossing the street by myself to get to the store that had this candy.

So like I like walked up there with my change and, you know, I barely could see above the counter. I'd put my change there and they give me this red candy. That's like probably like no recognizable food in there.

It's like just like red coloring and sugar, but it was so delicious. It's still delicious. Red Vines.

So I guess what did it represent? It represented I had this kind of proud independence and just sort of pleasure in being able to do something by myself. I do remember this sense of like pride of being able to do that by myself.

Megan Dougherty

That's really fun. I wonder, I wonder how close your experience of the brand was to how they intended or wanted for people to feel.

Lindsay Pedersen

I mean, the proof's in the pudding. The brand is still around and it's a really valuable candy brand.

Megan Dougherty

And they just got a shout out on a podcast.

Lindsay Pedersen

And they just got free media.

Megan Dougherty

Okay, so moving forward a little bit. You had these experiences. We all had these experiences like with different brands and businesses growing up.

When did you start to become aware of it as a practice or something that people were doing intentionally?

Lindsay Pedersen

Certainly, I was aware of brand advertising. I certainly was aware that there were businesses that were trying to sell me things by advertising. But back to that's not really the way that I define brand.

Brand is more like the promise that you're making that you want to mean inside the head of your audience. And I certainly didn't have words for it until early in my career. Maybe even when I went to business school.

When I do remember a friend of mine, Yosmar Martinez. Hi, Yosmar. She was a year ahead of me in business school and she had done her summer internship at Clorox.

And I was doing like first year orientation and she was telling me about her internship at Clorox. And I was like, oh my God, that is so fascinating that that's what you're doing. I think it was liquid plumber or a household product like that.

And I just thought it was just so fascinating because it was so mundane. And so like kind of really understand people and understand the behavior of the person that is our customer. And what makes them tick and then to build a business according to that insight.

That was the first time I really thought about brand in the kind of like capital B way. I think about brands now. It's funny because this was the late 90s and it was very unfashionable to be interested in consumer products like Clorox.

Because it was the first internet era, you know, fun internet companies. But I was interested in like bleach and cat litter. I think that's the first time I really saw, oh, there's a very intentional science to this.

And I was lucky enough to be able to do that for my summer internship. And then I went on and worked at Clorox for a number of years after business school. And kind of precision that it called for to really understand the customer need behind a given houseware product.

Or, you know, Brita water filters or Glad trash bags. I just love just like understanding the person and what's their life like that this would mean something to them. That just really lit me up pretty instantaneously once I was in that environment.

Megan Dougherty

I'd love to hear more about a couple of things that you mentioned. My background is much more for smaller businesses rather than big ones like national household brands. And I know the advice that we usually get that I've given many times in the past is, you know, you cannot be too clear about your ideal customer.

You know, you know everything about them. What does precision look like at a much bigger firm that has a much a huge audience in comparison to like a smaller local business?

Lindsay Pedersen

You know, it's actually not that different because you're not selling to, OK, so when I was when I was the brand manager of Clorox Bleach Pen, I wasn't selling to women ages 25 to 45 with small kids at home. I was selling to Sally like it actually isn't different.

The things that are different are your budgets are larger to reach them and you have a more, you know, a broader portfolio of products. So we didn't just have Bleach Pen. We also had Clorox Bleach and Clorox 2 and all these other laundry brands for various kind of sub segments.

But at the end of the day, it's actually we at Clorox Bleach Pen. We're trying to understand the customer as an individual person in the same way that a small business would. So it actually is the same practice.

And in fact, I think it's kind of a powerful thing for really large businesses to be able to think like that, that we're not trying to get this segment of the population. We're just trying to get this one person. And we've done our work.

So we know that there are lots of people who have this need or seeking this reward of this person. We know that there are lots of people like that, but we're trying to serve her. We're just trying to serve this one person.

It's surprisingly similar. Big company, small company. It's also, by the way, maybe even more surprising.

It's also really similar in different industries. It doesn't have to be a tangible product like cat litter. It's a service.

It's anything where a customer is needing to decide whether to part with their hard-earned money in exchange for something. Any scenario like that. So it's not just big companies or small companies.

And it's not just consumer goods. It's not just consumer businesses. It's all businesses where there's a human on the other end who has needs that you're trying to fulfill and ultimately delight.

Megan Dougherty

So pivoting completely from delight, there's a saying in marketing, more in the copy world, that really good marketing copy, for example, is going to repel as much as it attracts. Would you say the same is true for brand?

Lindsay Pedersen

A thousand percent. To be liked by everyone is to be loved by no one. And like does not lead to dollar signs. Love does.

And so there's no way around it. Being super sharp about what it is that you're promising. And yeah, of course, it should repel people.

Absolutely. If it doesn't, then it's not bold enough. I do think that there is a really strong parallel between that and copy.

So here's another way sometimes people talk about brands is that and often I'll ask people, like, what's a favorite brand? And the way they talk about them, it's like they're talking about a friend. It's like they're talking about somebody that's really important in their lives.

And that person is probably polarizing. That person is probably like, I love them. But somebody who has really different values than me would really hate them.

I don't love somebody who's hated by nobody. And maybe my language here might be I might be too strong by saying hate. But yeah, you're not actually taking a stand.

If you're not doing something brave, then you're not going to create like a really robust relationship with a customer. So I don't like go out and seek out to repulse people with a brand that I'm building. Maybe somebody could convince me that there would be usefulness to that.

I don't know. But it's more that maybe you could think of it as a litmus test. Like, are we being too safe here?

Because if so, again, to be liked by all is to be loved by no one. So I really take that to heart.

Megan Dougherty

Could you give an example or two of what it means to be really brave in a brand or a choice that you're making for a brand? Or maybe if you've seen like something in the wild that you didn't work for. Have you ever seen something in like a company or brand you're like, wow, that was brave, like, good choice.

Lindsay Pedersen

I'm going to say something kind of unsatisfying, which is if I can think of a brand, then they did something brave. Oh, in other words, like you say, can you think of a brand that I can't think of brands haven't done something brave?

Because that's the whole point. They don't break through the clutter. So I'll say, OK, like AT&T, you're in Canada.

But here, like that's a really mediocre brand. But most brands don't have the budget that AT&T has. So they can't just sort of like throw money at a lukewarm brand.

But like any brand that I can think of right now did something brave. Otherwise, they wouldn't have any place in my head. I can't think of the counterfactual, like what's the like non-brave version of this?

Because taking an even bigger step back, because brand strategy, what I do is brand strategy. So identifying what's the specific thing we're going to stand for, where we're going to win. Strategy is always about like what's the thing that's going to allow us to win.

And brand strategy is using brand as that kind of wedge. If you can think of a brand right now, anybody who's listening, it probably has a lot of value. Otherwise, you wouldn't have thought of it.

You might not be their sweet spot audience. I can think of brands that I don't like. See above, we were talking about like polarizing brands.

There are lots of brands that I really don't like. But the question isn't whether Lindsay likes a brand. The question is how much economic value are they creating for the business?

And how much purpose can they achieve because of that? If you can think of a brand in your head right now, they did something that was really specific or stand for something specific enough that it was easy for you to learn about and retain in your head. And that alone creates a lot of value.

Whether you love the brand or hate it, there's something in there that made you remember it. You can't remember somebody's name if you've never been introduced. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There are exceptions to this. But mostly, if we're talking about it, it's because they did something that made it easy to remember and be talked about.

Megan Dougherty

Alright, so we're getting to the end of our time for this. But can you share, since this is the Get to Know Lindsay episode, what is something that the people listening probably don't already know about you?

Lindsay Pedersen

Okay, something that people don't know about me. I know all the lyrics to an astounding number of 80s songs.

Megan Dougherty

And what's the first one that's jumping into your mind right now?

Lindsay Pedersen

Safety Dance, Men Without Hats.

Megan Dougherty

What an impeccable choice.

Alright, I'm going to have that in my head for the rest of the day.

Lindsay Pedersen

I know, you're welcome.

Megan Dougherty

And for anyone listening, if you are also going to have it in your head for the rest of the day, you should reach out to Lindsay on LinkedIn because you're probably going to be friends.

Lindsay Pedersen

I want to know you.

Megan Dougherty

And for fun, a little bit of rapid fire Q&A. So don't think, just answer. What is your favorite book?

Lindsay Pedersen

Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston.

Megan Dougherty

What is your favorite food?

Lindsay Pedersen

Ice cream.

Megan Dougherty

Favorite place outside of the United States that you've ever been?

Lindsay Pedersen

Italy.

Megan Dougherty

Favorite movie?

Lindsay Pedersen

You're giving me a taste of my own medicine that I have to choose this. This is funny. The first one that comes to mind is Shawshank Redemption.

Megan Dougherty

I mean, also great choice.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, I think.

Megan Dougherty

Let's do one more - favorite TV show?

Lindsay Pedersen

My favorite TV show? So, and maybe this is one other thing people don't know about me. I love Nordic noir, like Danish crime drama.

I love it. Love it. Love it.

The Bridge is probably my favorite. But if it is filmed and spoken in Sweden, Danish or Norwegian, and it's about crime, I love it.

Megan Dougherty

Lindsay, thank you so much. This has been a real treat for me and I'm sure for everybody listening too.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh, thank you for coming on and for convincing me to do this and for interviewing. And I hope that, again, I feel so self-conscious talking about all of this to you. So, I hope that listeners find value in it or at least can kind of giggle at some of the things that I said.

Megan Dougherty

Absolutely. And as mentioned, I'm in a position to guarantee that the link to connect with Lindsay is going to be in the show notes wherever you're listening to this episode. So, if you liked what you heard, and I'm sure you did, make sure to reach out.

Lindsay Pedersen

Awesome. Thanks, everybody. Thanks for listening to this episode of North Star Leaders.

Make sure you don't miss an episode by subscribing on your favorite podcast app. If you know of a North Star Leader whose insights would be valuable for this community, please message me on ironcladbrandstrategy.com. Also on that website are show notes, transcripts, and a way to sign up for our monthly newsletter.

I hope you join us again for another episode of North Star Leaders.