North Star Leaders Podcast

Lindsay Pedersen

The world needs what only your business can bring, and as a leader, it's your job to deliver. But where do you focus? Where do you direct your time, your team, your budget, and your emotional energy?

We're learning this together on the North Star Leaders Podcast. In this podcast, I talk to purpose-driven leaders about the choices that they make to create audacious economic value while also realizing their distinctive purpose. I'm Lindsay Pedersen, brand strategist, author of Forging an Ironclad Brand, and host of the North Star Leaders Podcast.

Let's get to it. Today, I am really happy to be joined by Ridhi Tariyal. Ridhi is CEO and co-founder of NextGen Jane, the company doing precision medicine for women's health and inventor of what's come to be known as the smart tampon.

Ridhi, welcome to the show.

Ridhi Tariyal

Thank you so much, Lindsay. It's a pleasure to be here.

Lindsay Pedersen

It's really great to have you. To start us off, what's the most energizing part of your job that those on the outside would never guess?

Ridhi Tariyal

It is writing. I think that a lot of people think writing is a bear, but I really enjoy it in almost every format that I encounter it, whether it's synthesizing some new finding or having a take on a policy that's come out or just ranting about something that's, you know, relevant to my job. I just love doing it.

Lindsay Pedersen

What is it about writing or putting words to a page or screen that unlocks energy? What do you think is happening there?

Ridhi Tariyal

You know, it helps clarify my thinking. It helps crystallize why I'm having both the intellectual and emotional response that I am to something. That's just a very satisfying feeling to say, that's why this is what I think about it.

And I'm able to actually articulate it. It's very, it feels good.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. There's sort of a stepping into power about that. And I know I relate to the intellectual power of writing and clarifying your own thinking.

And I struggle with that in a gen AI world that where there's such a role for AI helping you create content. And yet, if the whole reason you're creating that content was actually not the whole reason, but a lot of it was for your own benefit, then it's sort of like the AI gets to do the good part and you don't get to do that anymore. So I sort of like...

Ridhi Tariyal

That's a really interesting point. I have a guilty admission there, which is currently, don't hold me to this, but currently I don't use AI to do the first draft. I just don't.

I feel very compelled for this reason to say the first draft has to come, you know, for me. Yeah.

Lindsay Pedersen

Actually, I love that there might be like an 80-20 rule with that, right? Like the thinking mostly happens in the first draft anyway. I like that.

I like that. I think I'm going to take that. Awesome.

Addressing Stigma and Advancing Women's Health

Okay. So just to talk about NextGen Jane for a minute. So NextGen Jane collects menstrual blood.

So this is a stigmatized topic, like a lot of things in women's health. How much does that stigma of talking about menstruation affect what you're building, how you lead a company like this, how you talk about a company like this?

Ridhi Tariyal

The stigma portion of it, and the way that I would guess that most of your audience thinks about it, used to be a bigger problem 10 years ago when we started. And we came up with all sorts of like clever euphemisms. Instead of saying menstruation, we say female-specific medical substrate.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh my goodness. Oh my gosh.

Ridhi Tariyal

And that helped. Yet over the initial first blush, you know, maybe, I don't know if embarrassment is the right word or shame or discomfort. So whatever someone might be feeling discussing menstruation.

I would actually say one real substantial difference over the last 10 years is that has changed. And it is for all factors, you know, that there are so many more people talking about it in social media. There's so many more companies that have started that explore menstruation from different angles, whether it is more ecologically friendly ways to collect it, whether it is, you know, for diagnostics or whether it is to isolate organoids to do better drug development.

There's just a lot of companies that are now working in this space. There was even early on, there was a flurry of like organic tampons and organic period products that came out. So there was a bunch of companies that did that.

There were a bunch of companies that even did period boxes that like introduced someone who was starting their menstrual process to the concept of menstruation. So from all different angles, social or scientific or just better products for managing your regimen, there was that. And there was a lot of like clever marketing around it too, which just made the conversation easier to have at least.

And I would say now there are just so many scientific labs in academia working on it as well, which is really fun to see. The stigma part of it is very different. One thing that still remains that is interesting to track, you know, in terms of people's perception or understanding changing over time and how it impacts what we do, is there is still sort of a lack of understanding of the mechanics and specifics.

And this does have to do a little bit with the fact that if you have never experienced menstruation, never had to deal with it, there are just things that you don't inherently know. So sometimes we will still get questions like, well, how long do you collect? And it's asked as if it's this like really difficult, profound question.

Or, you know, how do you collect it? How do they know? What are the specifics?

Right. You know, there's just so much about whether it is like women's intuitive knowledge of heavy flow day or clotting or when it starts, how it feels like when it starts, when you even know it's about to start, what your relationship with day one is. They're just all of these sort of specifics that I feel like either women have an intuitive knowledge of or they're very quickly able to like align to a standard.

Right. If you say, do not count spotting, your day one is the first day you're not spotting. It's pretty easy for people to follow.

Right.

Lindsay Pedersen

Does it? Yeah.

Ridhi Tariyal

There you go.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah.

Ridhi Tariyal

The question comes up, it arises in saying, like, is spotting the first day of menstruation, for example. And so I've always and I shouldn't be, but I'm always still surprised when people ask questions like it just comes from a lack of lived experience. And that ends up being more of an impediment, because I think that they think it's more of a challenge to actually do the collection and get this rich specimen type than it is.

Lindsay Pedersen

Wow. That's so interesting. So in the last 10 years, as a consumer audience has become more comfortable talking about it in an investor audience, it's less foreign, it's less stigmatized.

Is there a shift in the number of women that you're pitching to, like just in the last 10 years? Was it mostly men and now it's half and half or because I imagine that who you're talking to is going to really influence to what extent that comes up, like questions that are kind of rudimentary to those of us who have menstruated. They're just so basic.

It's actually surprising that they'd even ask.

Ridhi Tariyal

It's a yes and no. It's actually a really good question and has a slightly more complicated answer, which is in the beginning, you're right, it was even more male dominated in terms of who you're pitching to. However, we would find that oftentimes partnerships would send us to the female partner, even if she had nothing to do with life sciences.

So that was more frustrating back then to say, I don't think I should be pitching to your tech partner about this life science play just because she's a woman. And so that was a phenomenon that we faced where we were like, can we just pitch to the science person regardless of what their sex is? And now I would say that there absolutely are more, not only women who are in investing positions, but there are actually many femtech focused funds.

There are many funds that are focused on like female founders. The one thing that I would say happened that made us sort of misaligned with that is that most of those funds are seed stage funds, meaning they write smaller early stage checks. And by the time there was like a real critical mass of femtech funds that were writing these checks, we were past the seed stage.

And so we're back in this sort of like, you know, we've got to write to people who are writing bigger checks and they are still largely male dominated.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, you're a tiny bit too early for that ease.

Ridhi Tariyal

Phenomenon, yeah.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, yeah. I know that endometriosis is a focus. Is menopause as well?

Menopause being so zeitgeisty, at least from my standpoint, I see that. I'm just curious, like, is it menstruation or is it also the end of menstruation?

Ridhi Tariyal

Yeah, we actually hope that we are able to find some novel insights into that perimenopause to menopause transition. And for two reasons, one's just scientific, which is that, you know, for collecting menstruation in your early 40s, let's say, as you're beginning that perimenopause transition, one of the things that there still would be nice to have would be biological markers that are clearly related and indicate how far you are from that menopause transition. And so one of the things we think is interesting about menstruation, it is clearly related to the amount of estrogen you are producing in your ovaries at which, you know, it declines over time until it goes to zero and that's when you fully entered menopause.

And so fundamentally, we believe that there is an opportunity to be able to establish more clearly when that perimenopause transition has begun and establish more clearly how close you are to actually, you know, that full menopause transition. So from a scientific perspective, yeah, we think that we're going to be generating interesting data there. From a medical perspective, we think it could be useful.

And I just highlight that to say, yeah, it's cool science. Will it actually change how care is delivered? And one of the persistent things that we're finding is that when you start HRT, if you are to start HRT, matters.

You don't want to start it, you know, after your last period. You actually want to start it earlier in that journey. And so if you can give someone more calibrated insight as to how far they are from that endpoint and when they should start for maximum benefit, I think it actually could be beneficial from a medical perspective.

So we're interested in it. We're following the space. We absolutely collect tampons from people who are, you know, between 40 to 50 that are clearly somewhere in that transition.

And so at some point, hopefully that there will be a critical mass of patients that allow us to make some sort of observation about that perimenopause-to-menopause transition.

Lindsay Pedersen

More precise, less guesswork and reading tea leaves. And yeah, that sounds really needed. I'm curious about the way that you lead NextGen Jane.

Leadership Style, Company Culture, and Personal Insights

What would others in the organization say you're like as a leader? What's your style?

Ridhi Tariyal

I think it's always a funny question because my perspective is so subjective.

Lindsay Pedersen

Sure, sure.

Ridhi Tariyal

I would actually love for at some point, I would love an objective like third-party view of what the answer could be. But I will give you my subjective take, which is the way I like to describe it is involved but not micromanaging. And I know that is a, you know, careful balance to strike.

But it could be an artifact of the fact that we're a small company. But, you know, there are just such diverse things that we tackle, right? Everything from what's our IP strategy?

What is our approach to sequencing? What's our clinical approach to what type of patients we want in a particular study? What's the clinical study design, right?

What's our biostatistical plan? What's our bioinformatic approach? And I'm just like, what's our thinking about UXEY for product development?

Like how do we want the person who's receiving our kit to engage with the product? And if you have a really small team, if you actually want to want to help them troubleshoot and problem solve, you have to get in the weeds. You can't sort of read the one pager and say, oh, I think that this is the direction we want to go.

You actually have to like get in there, look at the videos of people using the product and user testing studies, right? Like get on the phone with the engineers to say, what would be the trade-off? Like there's always trade-offs.

If I add this mechanism to make it easier, what am I losing? And all of that like actually involves you being like what I call in the mud. And I like problem solving.

So I like I'm inclined to be in the mud. And so my leadership style tends to be like, if there's a problem, let's get into it. I don't need the three sentences.

Like let's get into the design. Let's open the claims and the patent. Let's figure out not just strategy, but like let's block and tackle together.

Lindsay Pedersen

Is there a line where you know being involved has become too involved? Like is there a, like you said, the balance, like what's the point when it's not serving long-term, it's not serving the person or the team?

Ridhi Tariyal

I think for me, it's when I have the impulse or thought in my mind to say, maybe I should just do this. Oh, oh, maybe. Right.

Should I get in there and like redesign the validation plan for the, no, you shouldn't.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. Yeah. I picture like somebody is at a whiteboard.

And when you're at the point, when you go up there and you push them out of the way and gently take the pen from them, that's a good signal.

Ridhi Tariyal

Not even. I give myself the right to get on the whiteboard. Okay.

Yeah. It's when I'm like, let me take over the board, doc.

Lindsay Pedersen

Okay. Do you have those moments still? Like where you're like, oh, I'm.

I have the impulse still sometimes.

Ridhi Tariyal

I'm like, oh, I could probably do this faster. I could probably knock it out. And you know, I try very hard to exert control there to say, not worth my time.

And like, this has got to be run by somebody else. But there's that line, right? Because I want to be involved enough to actually intimately know what the problem is.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, to play devil's advocate, like why not just take over in moments like that? Like, what's the rationale in the moment? What's the trade-off that you make if you get too involved?

Ridhi Tariyal

If I did that for every team member that I was blocking and tackling with, now, in addition to what like my normal workload would be, I have five extra days. So, I mean, if I said it once a week, maybe it would be okay. But like, if you're actually now actively engaged in that manner with every sector of the company, like how many times can you actually say, let me take that on?

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. So there's a point when it gets in the way of scale and you care about scale. You care about the details of figuring out this problem, but you also care about scale.

And sometimes those values bump into each other and you need to negotiate them. Yeah. What about kind of leadership best practices that you take from the world or from other leaders you work with, quote unquote, best practices?

Which ones do you quietly ignore or even actively reject that others consider, you know, gospel?

Ridhi Tariyal

You know, when we, we, the company started in Boston and when we moved out to California, this was back in 2015, 2016. So like a while ago, pre-pandemic. There was still sort of this approach to what the work environment should be, which I would characterize it as like hybrid was okay.

Sometimes remote is okay. Ping pong tables. It's a family.

This is your life. You could spend your entire time here. You know, everything's like limitless vacations.

You know what I mean? It was, it was very, obviously it's a hardworking environment because tech companies are hardcore, but there's still sort of a laxity in some of these things. And I think I'm very old school and traditional, you know, classic East coast, started my career in banking consulting and big pharma.

And there is a affinity I have with sort of professional standards that I grew up with and I find hard to let go. And so even, you know, very quickly after the pandemic, like once we were all like vaccinated and could possibly come back, like we know we don't have, there's no remote work. There's no hybrid work.

Right. I still like, like, let's show up early. Let's all sort of try to be in the office at the same time so we can encounter each other.

I like meetings to start on time. Like I want everyone to show up. I like to have high fidelity to your calendar.

Like if it exists, put it on calendar and make sure that you actually make the meeting. Like we, I don't, you know, I don't like, like drift as I call. I remember I had a young employee once who showed up on Monday and was like, I'm taking Friday off for Coachella.

And I think that like in Valley, like some of that is cool. Right. Like some attitudes are like that, that's okay.

And I'm just not wired that way. And so for me, that's a cause for a conversation to be like, Oh, we give notice, like enough advanced notice. Cause like, if you're absent, people need to know.

That was always something that I think at some point it was considered best practice. Right. Like this is the work environment of the future.

It's just very like your home. And I always rejected that to say like, this is not your home.

Lindsay Pedersen

We're not your family. You have a family. We're not them.

Yeah.

Ridhi Tariyal

You have a family. I encourage you to have a vibrant outside life.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah.

Ridhi Tariyal

When we're here, we're locked in. We're professional. I'm like, we get things done and then you can check out.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. I mean, it sure speaks to my heart and I feel like just how kind of unabashed you put that. I feel like people would really respect your clarity and if it's not going to work for them, it's not going to be happy for anybody.

So let's just be really clear about that upfront. Ping pong is not the priority. And there's a pendulum thing probably about that kind of laxity that maybe it never will be that far to the other side again.

I don't know. But yeah, I feel you. There was a time when it was like a little bit heretical to say no ping pong, show up on time, actually come to the office.

Ridhi Tariyal

My sense is it might be swinging back. I do feel like a lot of the tech companies are going back to like, especially with AI being so centralized in the bay, being like, you got to come in.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah. So there's a pendulum-y part that's dynamic and there's also your personal, like, this is how I like work to get done. And as we kind of unfold this culture, we wanted to look and feel this way.

These are our values as a company. And those things are not pendulum-y. It's a dance, but it's not really like going to be at the whims of what's in vogue.

Ridhi Tariyal

Totally. Good examples are like, we've had people ask before, can we bring dogs into the office? It's like, we're a lab.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh, when you first said lab, I thought you meant like Labrador Retriever because I have a lab. But yeah, we're a lab. We are a lab.

We're not for Labradors.

Ridhi Tariyal

Correct. Correct. Or like, I've been asked, can my friends come and co-work?

I'm like, this is not a co-working space. This is not the vibe here. And to your point, I'm like very upfront, even in interviews, to basically say, this is the air of the company.

It's not hybrid. It's not remote. Like it's, you know, professional.

We should like, just so I'm trying to self-select for people who are like, actually, that's what I want.

Lindsay Pedersen

Totally. What's something that you used to feel is true, but you no longer feel is true?

Ridhi Tariyal

You know, a big one for me was I thought that the more capital you raise, the easier your life would get. And to a certain extent, that's true, but it plateaus faster than you would think. There is not a linear relationship between how I think as the founders, the stress you feel, and like the awesome burden of like bringing home something meaningful.

It does not actually get ameliorated by capital the way that I once thought it would. And you know, when we first raised our first like convertible node, or when we raised our first seed round, I thought, okay, we're on a path now. And like, we're going to hire enough people.

And there's going to be enough de-risking that the job will become inherently less stressful. And that never happened. You know, part of the reason is, is that your problems get more challenging.

They become more complex and sophisticated. And the onus to bring something meaningful to bear becomes even bigger because you've taken on more money. And I've completely like, I really thought at some point, like you raise your way out of being like a complete stress ball or complete, like, oh my gosh, feeling the overwhelming weight of what you're doing.

And I don't think you do. I don't think you ever get out of that.

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, that is kind of counterintuitive. It makes me think of, I know you have a small child, and I have teenagers, when your kids are small, and it's so physical, it's so demanding. And you think, oh, you know, once they're potty trained, once they're this, once they're older, but what happens is, you know, like little kids, little problems, big kids, big problems, like the stakes are different.

And so that sort of mirage of it'll be easier is present with a lot of things in life in a way of being a parent in some ways as being a leader. So there's a dynamic there that feels familiar.

Ridhi Tariyal

I love that analogy. Actually, I told her I was four years old. And the other day, she said, I don't feel beautiful.

And I was just flabbergasted. And I thought, God, I'd rather be dealing with a diaper rash. Like, what would be the like, navigate a child through?

Lindsay Pedersen

Yeah, I'd rather have a diaper rash than that. And whatever the eight year old version of that comment, I'd rather have the diaper rash. I'd rather have.

I'd rather be. Well, I don't know if I'd rather be sleep deprived. Pretty much anything is pretty much anything is better than that.

But yes. Well, this has just been such a heart filling conversation. Thank you so much.

I want to let people know how they can find out more about you. But I'm first going to ask you a few fun rapid fire questions, just like one word answers or so. Okay.

Beach vacation or city vacation?

Ridhi Tariyal

City.

Lindsay Pedersen

Favorite kind of candy?

Ridhi Tariyal

Truffle. Any truffle? Like, like just any dark.

Ridhi Tariyal

Dark chocolate, not too many accoutrement. I don't need sprinkles.

Lindsay Pedersen

You're a purist.

Ridhi Tariyal

Purist.

Lindsay Pedersen

No hazelnut. No. Yeah.

Dark chocolate truffle. Okay. Introvert or extrovert?

Ridhi Tariyal

Extrovert.

Lindsay Pedersen

What's your favorite movie?

Ridhi Tariyal

Oh, you can't pin me down for that. Oh, okay.

Lindsay Pedersen

Well, okay. First.

Ridhi Tariyal

How about latest movie I watched?

Lindsay Pedersen

Latest movie you watched?

Ridhi Tariyal

Chinatown. Jack Nicholson.

Lindsay Pedersen

Oh, classic. Okay. And lastly, are you a morning person or a night owl?

Ridhi Tariyal

I am usually awake by 4 a.m. and in bed by 8 p.m. So.

Lindsay Pedersen

That would qualify as a morning person. Yes. I love that.

Okay. Where can we send people who want to learn more about you or about Next Gen Jane?

Ridhi Tariyal

Two places. One is our website, obviously, nextgenjane.com. And then our Instagram is the same handle, nextgenjane on IG.

And please reach out, find us, get involved in our clinical research. We love hearing from you guys.

Lindsay Pedersen

Awesome. Thanks, Ridhi. Thanks so much.

Thanks for listening to this episode of North Star Leaders. Make sure you don't miss an episode by subscribing on your favorite podcast app. If you know of a North Star Leader whose insights would be valuable for this community, please message me on ironcladbrandstrategy.com.

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